Brendan Suhr: Coaching Michael Jordan on the ‘92 Dream Team and How Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars & Bill Laimbeer Led the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys to 2 NBA Titles

Phil White  01:34

Great. Yeah, so I guess I'm coach we don't do a live intro because that, again, as you just saw it. This is perilous enough anyway we wish we could do it over a beer or a coffee or something in person but will I be entered later so yeah, to be respectful of your time I'll just kept count down 321 And then Timmy, I'll let you jump in and do your thing. Perfect, do it. Alright so counting down 321 And we're live.

Tim DiFrancesco  02:04

Coach Sir, I'm going to have to ask you right out of the gates a question that I've been chomping at the bit to hear your response on I want you to take us into the moment or the series of moments when you first realize that basketball was what you wanted to dedicate yourself to.

02:22

Well first of all, Tim, thanks for having me on, but please don't call me coach sir please just call me Brenda, all right. I tell my players, a lot to do it in my entire career from when I first started coaching when I was 19. You know, I was coaching kids a year older and me at five star basketball camp which was the most prestigious camp in the country. In the Pocono Mountains and, you know, having been there for as a camper for years was, you know, with some really, really good coaches. At that moment, I, you know decided I really wanted to be a coach, my high school coach was the Hall of Famer up Brown. And, and so you know when you're starting out with someone like that when you're, you know 15 years old, teaching you the game. He was so impactful because he coached, football, basketball and baseball. He was incredible in all three. I just knew I wanted to work with get I wanted to be a high school coach. And as my mom had told me later on before she passed when she was 93 she said. You bet a slight disappointment because you've never reached your goal you never coached in high school and I said mom, but I coached 40 years in the NBA. Now that really sent you to college to be a physical education teacher and coach so as a slight disappointment to the crowd. Yeah, but, uh, but you know I think the thing that is when I was that young. I saw and I, I saw the impact the coach had on me. And then, even though I was very young, working with kids at a summer camp. I saw how impactful it could be so when I finished as soon before I even graduated college I already took a job as a division one coach at the University of Detroit with the game. Incredible Hall of Famer Dick Vitale, and so I 21 years old I was a college coach in division one level, there were only two assistants on the staff back then, now there's like 100 guys on the coaching staff. And so it was really I was blessed to be surrounded by great people and so it happened, I think it was that that moment when I was so young and being around so many people and then, you know as you coach in this and I think now I'm up to almost 50 years of coaching, you know, just moments keep happening all the time, still to this day, which is neat.

Phil White  04:54

Oh I love that. I'm going back to that five star camp so I remember reading a feature article in slam magazine many years ago about how amazing that setup was and, you know some of the amazing coaches and players came through there so, you know, now it's the ABC camp, you know the Nike camp the Adidas camp you know the Jordan Brand classic this kind of thing, but can you take us back in time a little bit, both as a player and maybe a camp counselor slash coach and just tell us a little bit about what made fivestar so special.

05:26

Well you know back then, Phil, there were, there was no such thing as a basketball in the summertime we had summer leagues, and you had camps, and that was the only way you ever got seen by a college coach, they would come and see a summer league, they your high school team was playing in, or they would see you at a summer camp, where you were playing with other kids from other areas. And for us, even though that started out when my first year I was a camper there we had only 48 kids at the camp. And I always tell people, you know, when you have 48 kids in a camp 24 We're in the what we call the NBA 24 We're in the College Division and the lectures that we had that week. Were up Brown, George raveling another hall of famer, who was the assistant coach of Villanova. Bob Knight who was the head coach at West Point, none of the Hall of Famer. And, you know, and it just went on and on. So, you know, in a matter of a week you know you get to see all these incredible people. Oh and I forgot one of the lecture, the guy by the name of Chuck Daly. Oh by the way, a 15 year old kid. I'm meeting Chuck Daly for the first time at a camp when there's only 48 kids. And as it turns out I become his top assistant for the last 12 years of his career. And you know we were friends from when I was a high school player college player, all the way through. So, yet to have a 50 year relationship with someone was just amazing. And, you know, Just to be every one of those coaches, taught me something. And that's what I learned is that there's all kinds of styles that you can be as a coach, you'd be was the incomparable teacher Knight was very intimidating raveling was the most dynamic motivational guy in a great player and also was a great teacher of rebounding that no one taught back then, and then Chuck had this magnetic personality charisma around him. And I remember when I went to work for UB as a 27 year old assistant with the Atlanta Hawks. I was so intimidated. My first day of practice because I know I have no, there's no reason I'm there, I mean, I am. I can't. I'm not in the same universe with this guy, and Mike fratello the other system. And I remember we you be had this incredible sense about him, and he walked up to me about two minutes before we started, and I am scared to death we have, you know, starting practice. I have players, they're much older than I am. And he walked up to me and he said Hey, dope. And if you've ever seen any videos you've seen up on TV. He's so he's such a, such a strong presence when he talks to you. And he says, Hey, don't try to imitate me. Just be yourself. Good enough. And that was something I took with me my entire career, and my style is totally opposite of his. And you know what, and it's worked for me. And so that's what the advice I try to give to everyone going into coaching. Don't try to copy Rick Pitino don't try to be ROY WILLIAMS or Coach K, just be who you are. And if you're good enough. If you know what the hell you're doing, it's going to be fine.

Phil White  09:12

So, with, with Coach Brown rewinding to back in your high school days I'm going to guess he taught us some things about what it meant to be a man and to live a good life and about the coaching craft, not just on the court. What's maybe one takeaway if we rewind back to those days when you were still a teenager learning at the feet of Ub branwen The greatest coaches in any sport in history.

09:35

Yeah, I mean, the sad thing, as a young man, as a high school sophomore, he only was with me for a year because he then became a college coach, I then caught up to him later on when I was, you know, in my late 20s working with him. And I think the biggest thing was he taught was organization, you have to be organized, you have to be disciplined, you have to have a philosophy, and you must be a great teacher. And that was something that I always carried with me. You don't have to be the loudest, you don't have to scream and yell at people, though he could do that very well. But, you know, it was about being an outstanding teacher, and I think, you know, and my style that I, I, you know, you know, took on was one that, you know, I taught, but I don't yell and scream. I've never had at my players in college or the NBA, I teach them, and I have the ability to change the volume of my voice but never in a, in a loud and intimidating way, I just have the ability to just change, I can go from very quiet to a little louder and stuff like that I have good control over what I'm doing there, but I think players, really, they. And we've seen this at the NBA level they really and I think Tim meals, you know, having worked there. I think they wrote credibility is a huge factor. If they know you know what you're doing, you're in good shape. They know you don't know what the hell you're doing, you're not getting a pass. Yeah, they'll be dismissive of you, because if you don't, if they don't believe you can help them by playing more minutes, or making more money, or you have the ability to influence them, the head coach in any way, you're, you know, you're really struggle, so that that was kind of my whole thing. And so I tried to get there with credibility.

Tim DiFrancesco  11:39

That's, that's, you know, I, I completely, like you said they will smell it a mile away when you know they either way, right i mean they know a good thing when they see it and they are gravitated toward resources they, they got there in part because they can recognize the resources around them and they can tap into them and if you are one they're gonna see that and if you're like, like you said to I've seen a lot of people, you know, nowhere near the the amount of times that I'm sure you've seen this, but where, you know, people get outside of themselves and that's very recognizable to and and very, you know immediately sort of dismissive is what you'll see with that. So before we get too far away from the high school day is getting a chance to play for Coach you'll be brown and I'm curious, what was your calling card what would have, what would have coach Browns scouting report on you as a player, Ben. Brandon, what would that what are we, what are we looking at,

12:41

but it's funny that you said that, you know, as a high school player, I could really pass the ball. And I mean, that was one of the things I really knew the game. And I remember, ironically when we went to check Daly's funeral in Florida, years ago, and about a dozen years ago and I brought my son with me who was, you know, in his early 20s and had known Chuck since he was five years old and had a great love for Chuck and UB came up to my son, who I don't think he had really ever met, other than when he was born he was born when I was coaching with you. But, and he walked up to him on his own neck while I was standing next to him and he said, Hey, you're, that's how you we always started. He said, Hey, your dad is a great coach. And he said, but he could really play, he was a great player. And when you get into coaching, No one ever reflects back to when you're playing and especially, you know, so that was kind of cool. And I remember driving two hours home afterwards and he said, You, He said you had game that was pretty cool. That had to give us, he was impressed you know and so that was kind of good, as so but yeah but I think he would say that I knew how to run a team, I was unselfish I could really passable, and stuff like that, and I had a good mind for the game. You know, you know, but, you know, and I think as a role player that's, that's, that's what my game was and, you know, I was Steve Nash product scoring.

Phil White  14:27

I was a bad Ross, I was gonna say Tim reflect a little bit on that compare and contrast with your time with Steve Nash Lakers.

Tim DiFrancesco  14:37

Well, I mean, you know, Steve's the whole time I was

14:39

probably as fast as Steve was at the end of the day,

Phil White  14:43

or as fast as Tim and I are now right yeah,

Tim DiFrancesco  14:46

that's it. You know I think Steve's, you know the ultimate really the definition of the the selfless player and, you know, just, I just really I can remember exactly where we were we were in a Memphis weight room, and he was unable to play that night so but was always itching to you know hey what can we do, can we get some more work and can we get on, you know, we're in the Memphis rate weight room and I'm just sort of, you know, I'm sitting there having a chance to pick the grit, the the brain of one of the better point guards of all time and, you know, he gets into this discussion and sort of, you know, not discussions I was just listening and, and a conversation about how his, he believes that a lot of his assists came from the correspondence and the the way that he treated his teammates, before and after they missed a shot. So, you know, in his eyes, he really looked at it as you have some guys who glare at you, you they pass you the ball you miss that they, you know may bark at you, they may glare at you, they're there, you know, and then his way of doing it was different his way was, I'm going to, I'm going to bring this, this person up, you know, they obviously didn't mean to miss on purpose and, you know, here, here we go. Let me get let me get over there and tell them, I'm going to give it to you again you're going to shoot it again and so that was really great. What do you think, um, what do you think because you said you were with Coach up Brown for one year in high school but so prior to that, what, what was it that helped you, was it just in you from the get go in terms of being a selfless pass first and run a team person. Well, you know, where was that where was that.

16:34

Yeah, I think, you know, you know, back then, you know, when we were growing up in New Jersey, I think you know we played every sport you know I mean I you know I was basketball was my worst sport, probably for sports, I played, I played my biggest thing I was attract star, you know I was a sprinter and, you know, and stuff as a young kid, you know, I went to Catholic grammar school and we had track teams and so, you know, I, you know what, since I was like, 10 years old. I was always the fastest kid, you know, and it was really fun, but now that I look back at it, you know, when we would go and have these meats, and that stayed that way till at least I was 12, and I could go and compete against kids from Newark and Jersey City, New is no black kid in the state they could beat me, and I, and now I didn't pick two things about it, good big game. Now I say man, I was the shit man. And I and I, and, you know, and I just laugh about it now, but I was really good football player, I ended up playing, you know, my sophomore year I played football, you know, on a state championship team you know I played lacrosse even because I was a big sport in our high school, lacrosse, and I played baseball as a Little Leaguer that was the first thing I ever played so I did everything. And that's the way you did it back then, you know, we played all kinds of sports, but then because of UB I gravitated to basketball in ninth grade. And that's switched at that point. And then because of him. You know, even though I did, you know another year of football, lacrosse, I just fell in love with the game, and figured out I had to work a lot, all year round up, but my own decision, you know, right, and and, but I think it helped me. And it's funny, my son. We never pushed him to do anything. He played like 810 12 Sports just sampling them as a kid, and then all of a sudden when we moved to Florida from Michigan, all of a sudden, you know he's going into 10th grade and so you wouldn't play anything and he said, Yeah, I want to be a golfer. I said, Would you play golf on vacation for like you were moving to Florida, and the kids they're ridiculously good, and, and it worked out, you know, but, but it's funny you know and we did. My daughter was a little thing like, you know, born prematurely, she was very tiny, and we put her in a tumbling class when she was three, four years old, just to kind of see if she could do anything and, and she became a world class gymnast, you know, wow, it was so freakin small she was for 1089 pounds as a senior in high school and she went to LSU, gymnastics, but she you know, but I believe in that. I just believe in exposing kids to all kinds of stuff, and then seeing what happens. So, that's kind of what happened with me and you know and and I look back on I said wow, you know, I think it's a way to parent as opposed to trying to take a kid and five and specialize and that's just my feeling as Sure.

Phil White  19:50

No, I love it and it really jives with our friend David Epstein, who you may know, you know, wrote the sports to him and his colleague si broke the one of the PD scandals in baseball and then he wrote his book range. And really that came from a debate where Malcolm Gladwell was obviously touting the 10,000 hours from Anders Ericsson and literally called the moderator called him and said, Hey, you're your buddy Gladwell says, You're the man to debate him in this thing and take the opposite possession and till then he hadn't really thought about it, but then you know that turned into seven years of research and then he wrote that great book range about exactly what you're saying because, as we talked about before, Tim, you can have the Williams sisters, you can have a Tiger Woods, who do specialize early but the Roger Federer is the Mannings several generations of the Manning family you know and so many others. Having a broad range and not just sports but I dance music languages. So yeah, that, that's really interesting Brendon and what you're saying kind of Javed jives with Epstein's thesis there.

20:55

And I'm a big believer in what Gladwell says but the 10,000 hours have to come in at appropriate time. So I've got 100,000 hours, but as a coach, but they've come when it was time to do it, and you're not gonna add 20 years of age and coaching, become a superstar, you're not gonna become John Wooden, you know, and so, you know, my problem with. I teach coaches all over the world, how to coach, and I really don't care what sport but mainly basketball people, and they all the young coaches all want to skip steps, they want to they want to become. Brad Stevens after one year as an assistant coach somewhere in high school, and you know it doesn't happen like that you have to, you know, you have to pay your dues, you have to go through the different steps, but the young people now really struggle with that, I mean, some of my very closest friends we literally go back and we joke about, you know, our initial jobs, and how much we made in them. And if we ever told someone now. Hey, I can get you to be on the staff with Nick Vitale, as his full time assistant for $9,000. It's a kiss my ass. No no wait, and and you know, but, you know, that's, that's what you have to do, you know is in getting there. But unfortunately, there's a lot of people that don't want to do that they were more concerned with money, but they also, I mean, most of my friends that have achieved greatness, have great stories of a build up, and a growth mindset, in my opinion.

Phil White  22:41

I love that. Yeah, talk about a little bit about that coaching tree that you have and why you're so passionate about mentoring others and kind of coaching the next generation of coaches. Yeah, I

22:52

mean, the thing that, you know, I've found, I never, and I think, you know, big thing Phil is when you get into this profession. You never know. I met Stephen Covey where I had the end in mind, that was not it I was just trying to be a coach. But then at some point during my career, I recognize that there's, I had been helped along by so many people. And it's my obligation to somehow try to help others, and I saw at the college coaching level, there was zero development of coaches, none. They all all the college coaches do what they want them to recruit, recruit, recruit, they have no time to work on your craft. And, and so I tried, and to learn. And so I tried to influence that a little, and then with the advent of technology. We've been able to take some huge steps. And so that's one of the things that we're really trying to do now. Like you through your podcasts, we're in 150 countries around the world. You know, because you know, our guests are very nice and they do it, they're very influential on people. We give our stuff away. We have some big events a year we have videos that sell also in 150 to 200 countries. And, and I love that because I think it's important that you know. That's why I called my business coaching you because I wanted it to be considered like a university to learn. And I believe that coaching is about taking people whether they can't take themselves. And so I think that's so important. Any of the I've 17 players that have been blessed to, you know, you know, Coach, that I think are in the Basketball Hall of Fame, and is included in that and that's not including Jordan, and guys that magic and guys I've had I've coached an all star game streamed. I'm not but I'm actually I actually have coached unreal teams. But those. I'm

Tim DiFrancesco  25:03

sorry, can you say that again I don't want to get too far away from it. I tried to write it down, you said coaching is

25:09

coaching

Tim DiFrancesco  25:11

is taking is taking

25:13

players where they can't take themselves. Wow, okay, it's a really powerful statement, it is

Tim DiFrancesco  25:21

I'm trying to I'm trying to. You're trying to take that through a couple I

25:25

mean, think about, in my world in the basketball world do you think about Jordan you think about Isaiah you think about Colby. They all had coaches that were huge influences on, you know, Jordan, could not get to where he was without Phil Jackson. Tiger Woods couldn't get where he was without different swing coaches and caddies in golf, or like coaches. They really are. Because they're, they're telling them all the time what what to do. And I think we see it in individual sports like tennis and gymnastics and things like that, but in the team sports, I mean we're having this big Belichick Brady thing right now, you know, who, you know, You know it's like, you know, who's more responsible. Shouldn't neither one of them, they're both, they're both they needed each other, you know, you know, there's, there's no one the witness. And I think that that's the beauty of sport. And I think that's, but I also say, I think, you know Tim, you can also take that on, good parenting, parenting, you know, our purpose as a parent is to take our children where they can take themselves. Yeah, you know, and an education teachers take kids, and then business the leader, the head guy takes the people that work for him, hopefully, where they can take themselves and so that's just a big thing with me is that if you really understand the responsibility you have, and it's a nurturing process, a mentoring process it's a love process. I mean, I always say, you know, my, my, my thing about coaching is, I'd love my players, you know, I I serve my players, and I care for my players. So love serve care relationship. And if I'm not doing that, then I'm not coaching them. And it's the same really with your children. And so that I try to be consistent with all that, because you know, in the end you know you see the coaches that just look at people and they put like lasers through the kids and intimidate them and stuff, you know, I believe in love tough, you got if you love. If you love the player and the player knows you're loving Him, then you can be tough with him. But if you don't have any relationship with him. Forget it. You can't be tough with that person. And that's why the player development coaches that we have been specially in the NBA. If they don't have a relationship like if you're working with Kobe Bryant, you know God rested. But if you were working with Kobe who worked out as Harder, harder than anyone ever. And if you did not have a relationship with him. He's not gonna listen to you the same. It's why Tim Grover was able to work with him and Jordan because they had this incredible relationship. And so that's the essence of coaching is, you can't coach anyone till you have a relationship with

Phil White  28:31

someone, it's kind of that theory of, I've heard it said his connection has to precede correction.

28:37

Oh, that's a little too academic for me, but yes it does.

Phil White  28:44

We'll play the Dr. Jim africo, my other collaborator for that one. But yeah, or is he probably would say just connection before correction.

28:53

Yeah, no it would add a doubt that you know, we used to always say you know he had good relationships but the real key now with the Gen Z kids which are the college players the high school players, is, you have to connect to them. And that's why parents struggle with kids at home because they don't know how to connect to them, they try to kiss their ass and let them do whatever they want, that's not that's not parenting. No, you have to figure out how to connect your kids, some people are great at relationships and so being able to connect, others are awful at it. Just because you're older and are cold parent or coach doesn't mean you connect that anyone

Tim DiFrancesco  29:31

who run and who's, who's a player in your NBA roster of people that you players that you've coached, that made you really worked for it that really, you know, was, was kind of tough to connect with but you chipped away at it and you made a connection,

29:49

but that's, that's an incredible insightful question because the and you know this from your experience with the Lakers. the best players in the world are the hardest to coach. Yeah. It's like being a teacher in high school and the kids are all taking advanced placement classes, and you're not that smart. Okay. And you're trying to stay one chapter ahead of him, you know, and, And so, like, working with someone like Isaiah Thomas, you know, he was. I was a coach on the Atlanta Hawks, which were their bitter rivals. Okay, we had a, not a love hate relationship, it was hate, hate, and, and all of a sudden, they'd lost a coach to became a head coach and they want me to come over there and I did not feel very comfortable in moving to their team, even though I love Chuck Daly. And I said, Chuck. How about if Isaiah and lamb beer and those guys don't accept me and he says no, I've already asked them, they want you. And I found him to be. Maybe my best of all time players to coach, he was the smartest he was an absolute genius. He was tough. He was, I mean, and he would say to me how it is and and stuff but the love, the relationship we had to this day. It's, it's, it's Brother to brother relationship, You know now going on oh my god, you know, 37 years 33 years now 34 years, we've been best friends on top of coach player relationship. And to me that's the ultimate thing when you have that type of working relationship Doc Rivers is another one I've had doc since he's 20 years old coming out and Marquette convinced him to be a coach. Today he's probably regretting it but, but it has some days, you know, but he is, he's brilliant. He's masterful he's got all the characteristics of a code she's got credibility character charisma. You know, he knows how to communicate it. He's got the whole package, and, and that's the things I'd look for in people and that's what that's what makes him so exceptional in my opinion, but I just think it's, you know guys like him, Dennis Rodman people think is the hardest one I've ever had to coach, Dennis was the one the easiest of all. Yeah, he didn't have a dad, so he loved Chuck and I, he looked up to us. He was craving for a male relationship that and then we loved him, and he was, he was a brilliant people don't understand he was absolutely brilliant basketball mind knew everything about every player in the league didn't need a scouting report, he, he had it all there. And every day he came out and put himself out there. And so, what made our team so good is we had phenomenal internal leadership so if he saw that guys like Isaiah and do Mars or something weren't playing to their capability, he would just go into a locker room and rip them up and down, we never had to say boo. I mean, and that nowadays. Yeah, I mean, get, I just laughed. Now I said imagine if someone didn't have to take a vaccine back then, now. Oh, good luck or he'd go in there and put it in their arm you know I

Phil White  33:32

think um yeah I mean I read an interview with Dream On green, That was really interesting just this week in the ringer where he pulled aside, one of their chief basketball riders, and he said it was a really interesting balance because when he would rip guys up and down and even the thing where you overheard him shouting at Steve Kerr and smashing out locker room and shouting, I'm not a robot. When he told him you're shooting too much that one game and it was on TNT, you know, or something like that. Well, it was an interesting balancing act because he said Andre Iguodala and Shaun Livingston would take him aside if he went too far and repping one of the young guys and say, I get it, and you're right to be hard on him but just back it off a little bit, because you've gone too far. And then when those guys you know Livingston retired and Iguodala went to another team, he kind of didn't have that moderating presence and he really missed it because he knows his own excesses and he kind of knew he needed it. So tell us a little bit more about kind of what role do Mars or Laimbeer Pete played in that, you know with Rodman and Isaiah and how that dynamic because a lot of people don't talk much about Joe Dumars anymore and I think maybe they should,

34:39

yeah no Joe Joe Joe was, you know, I felt we had about six guys on the bad boys that were real leader internet leaders, And they were every one of them lead differently, which is even better. And Isaiah was very vocal. lambier was very very vocal had 180 Plus IQ lambier did, brilliant guy, and backed it up by the way he played on the court. Then we had Rick Warren, who was an intimidating kind of leader, the kind of enforcer type never with our own guys but just, they knew that would Rick around he would protect them, you know, Rodman just played his butt off every day, but he was kind of what I call our truth teller. He would tell the truth, if you weren't doing your job, which I think is always good to have. Now, if the only people that are telling you you're not doing the right thing or your mom and dad or your coach, you probably don't have a really good team, You know you need people, you know, older brothers and sisters or whatever, or teammates classmates to say, You know what, just like dream on was saying, you've gone too far. And do Mars was the kind of leader to just lead by example, always did the right thing. Never rarely said a word. Just that was but that was his style. He came from a very southern home with a great parental dead leader in his life. And that's the way, you know, his dad was a truck driver at a world truck driver. I think he just told his dad. His dad used to tell him, you know, you know, just do your job. I'm out here driving for 10 hours a day, I'm budgeting complained about it. At noon, man. You're making $400,000 You should be. and, you know, it's kind of cool when you think about, you know, and Vinnie Johnson was an amazing guy the microwave who's, you know the best six men believe back then. He was interesting from the standpoint that he was a very very good player. And every day he believed he should play more. And so every day in practice, he just, he went to do Mars, and Isaiah, and tried to destroy them, which made them better. You know, he competed. And so it was really kind of a dynamic day and I don't think you can ever get repeated that I've never seen it ever in coaching, again, it was a phenomenal group. And I think that's why they were not the most talented team, but they were mentally and physically the toughest team I've ever been around. Well and

Tim DiFrancesco  37:27

multiple people on that team as you explain that and you know I hadn't ever really heard that depth to, you know, up and down the roster there obviously knew the names of players and the success that those teams that you were a big part of had but the point, you know that you made there is the idea that multiple players up upwards of six, maybe more that had a willingness to do something that I think is one of the hardest things for a young player to do and it's it, you know, is is to step up and hold your peer accountable. And you know there's teams that don't have one single person, right, that that is willing to do that and

38:10

today's League, especially.

Tim DiFrancesco  38:13

Yeah, yeah, what

Phil White  38:15

would be Yeah. With that in mind, Tim. Brendan what what might be a lesson that a young player, whether it's middle school, high school maybe freshman in college could learn about leadership and from structure and accountability and self discipline and the willingness to discipline others from that from that group.

38:34

Well, I think, I think, number one, you know, learn to do your job as a player, you know, That's the most important thing, do your job. You know, come and compete every day. When you're doing your job and to, you know, I believe in standards more than rules, and so my, my standards that I have for the teams that I coach, have to do with things like being on time, because if I'm on time. That means I respect you. And so that, that was one of the two things that Chuck and I talked about with the Dream Team was, be on time because if you're not on time that means Michael, You don't respect magic and magic you know respect Barkley, that's what it would be in on time was about respect. And if you have respect among your peers, if all of a sudden there's buy in. If there's no respect, then you have a group, you don't have a team. And so that would be one of the biggest things. And then I think it's about, you know, in any anytime you play a commitment to winning. And, and then whatever when you commit to win, then you commit to doing the right things. And when you commit to doing the right things when you see someone not doing the right things, not being coachable, having a bad attitude not coming to work etc. Then you have to step up and you have to, you know, then you have to be a teammate, and you have to talk to them like I Coach Ben cymbals at LSU. Okay, so the things that's going on with him right now. That would never have happened with the bad boys.

Tim DiFrancesco  40:23

Right, right, someone's gonna someone's gonna step up,

40:26

they would have. They would have had a meeting without us in there, and they would have said, you know, and and I say this too in respect to Kyrie. You know, he would have had a shot because you can't tell me you want to win a championship. Everyone wants to win a championship every sport, but it's so damn hard to win a championship. And if one of the things is we need you to play in games, and the rules state that you have to be vaccinated to play our home games. You got to get, you know, you got to get this shot, I mean this is, you know. And so that's, that's what, don't tell me you want to be, you know, and you know what, and regarding been, you know, you signed a contract to be a professional player, you know, and if someone's not happy with you you get, you know, a little pissed off and stuff. That's too bad. Okay, you know, You, if you don't want to play you want to retire. I have no problem with that. You want to get paid 360,000 a game show up and play

Phil White  41:34

price that is that partly you mentioned Joe Dumars his father being a very strong man and, and what some people might call the holiday right. To put it mildly, um, is that the kind of thing to wear if it was obviously Joe wouldn't have tried to, you know, wouldn't have been in this situation, but if he had his father would have literally smacked him upside the head and said, get out there and play, you're being

41:57

driven there 18 Wheeler from Natchitoches, Louisiana up to Detroit. Go into but yeah, no, he would have, but they he had so much respect for his dad and he would never even the values and everything that they were raised with, you know, and Isaiah was raised in a single parent, mom with eight brothers and sisters and so, you know, he didn't have the father in his life of man he had a strong ass mom, she was married

Phil White  42:29

there any other characteristics among parents that you've come to know at any level of the game where you you've, you've started to see some other red threads of this is what, you know, in quotes, good functional parenting looks like.

42:44

Well, I think, you know, I think it's about letting the coaches coach, who are you know who are in charge of your child. and then letting them play. And, you know, the problem we have with little Leaguers on up is when parents tried to lead out to life they never had been in athletics. Right. You know, I would always watch my kids when they were playing young, and my wife would say why don't you coach, our son I said well that's what I do for a living, let someone else do it. I'm just gonna sit here and support him. And I never would yell at a coach or anything like that, never questioned anything. And so, you know, that's, you know, I think that was the best way whether it was ice hockey, you know, in Michigan or Little League Baseball, you know, or volleyball or indoor soccer I didn't care. I was just happy to get was out there playing and participating at 10 years old, I'm not worried about him, but parents literally put themselves in their life at that age it's just insane, actually.

Phil White  43:51

Yeah, so you think really even going back to Jordan, you know, Dolores is obviously very strong and as she, as she calls them Mr. Jordan Jordans Father James was, was also a big encourager but also set that example of working hard and working a lot of overtime shifts. When you look at Michael and that steely determination that is, I think Chuck Daly said in one of the old videos you're going to have to cut Michael Jordan's heart out to beat him it was either George Karl or Jack Daly. Do you think that that you know you can trace that through his DNA through his upbringing or was that something exceptional.

44:25

James indoors were great parents James is a great friend of chucks in mind now every time we play the bulls, especially in Detroit James would come and sit into our coach's locker with Chuck and I before the game. Imagine that. Wow. And he would sit there with us and we would just shoot the breeze with him for an hour before the game. And you know, and we just had such. And I always after one series when we won a championship I was offered an NBA head coaching job and I said I'll take the job, and James you'll be my assistant but you got to bring Michael, you know. But you know, we had such a wonderful relationship, but, you know, they were not overbearing at all. I mean they were just almost hands off, they were just so supportive. I actually coached Michael's two sons in college at UCF in Orlando. And, you know I had Marcus and Jeffrey, and, and I remember the guy I was working with my one of my dearest friends is the head coach and he, and he said, I'm so scared to coach Michael's kids you know do we yell at him, I said, relax, and I, and I called Michael on the phone. I said, Mike, I said Danny Jones your grade coach, I said he wants to know, how do you want him to coach your kids. And he said, Coach him like they were your own is the greatest thing I've ever heard. Wow, and and you know and that's what we did he say Britain if they need to get their ass kicked kicked her as if they need to be Hug, hug them, do what you do. I'm behind you guys. And Donnie was like, This is fabulous, you know, this is great, but I knew where Mike was coming because Michael, you know, was like that and, and it was wonderful and we had a great experience with the two kids, that's kind of neat. You know,

Tim DiFrancesco  46:15

so, Brandon, I want to tie something that you said talked about before, into some a piece that I believe an anecdote a story that I have heard you talk about related to the bus. The bus, I think for the Dream Team and MJ, but you talked earlier about being on time and how Chuck Daly said that was going to be a calling card of how the the Dream Team was gonna come together to show respect to each other. I always look at it as well as, you know, I depend on you the reason I'm on this on a team in the first place is because we can accomplish more with with with us together and I depend on you to be there when you're not there. I can't depend on you and then you bring up this idea of the respect. So, what was, what am I remembering about you talking about that but yeah, and

47:11

you're right on Kim said the biggest thing. When. When Chuck became the coach, it was a year and a half before the Olympics in Barcelona. And they had named him and they named unfortunately they named a 12 players, a year plus in advance. And in between there a lot of players got hurt they, you know, whatever. Now they do it, you know they named they named 30 players to try out which is way better. Then because guys could get hurt, or now all of a sudden they make a final cut, just before the games begin, which is a smarter way to do it, and but back then we had 11 professional players first time ever we have pros in the Olympics. And we had Christian Laettner as a college player. Okay. And so, you know when that happens, you know, I think, you know, Chuck. You know when we would fly around, you know the NBA on our plane during the season, I'd say okay, what are you going to say in your first meeting and I'm like kind of trying to coax it out of him, what, what he wants to talk about. He says, I'm working on it, you know he would never say, We're gonna, you know, like I'm trying to say you know we could talk about this together, you know, it could be a partnership like normal and so it and then all of a sudden, literally to the time the meeting starts, he never shared with anyone, what he was going to say. And so the first thing he says to them, is that you have to, and people don't understand this. The NBA game as you know is a 48 minute game, and 11 professional players that we met the Olympics is a 40 minute game. The. He said, the average 11 of the 11 players, averaged almost 40 minutes a game, or each one of them all 11 of them. They average no one was less than 20 points a game, up to 35 points a game. And how are we going to show he first thing he says is, listen, we got, we have a 40 minute game. You can't worry about how many points you score, how many minutes you play. There's only one thing you need to worry about and that's winning a gold medal. Because if we don't want a gold medal where they're not going to let any of us back in this country. We told them, and, and he said we all agree on that, and 100% of them said yep, we buy into that. So what he got was, he gave him a basically a vision, and he got a commitment from them, which is absolutely brilliant, you know, and then he said the other thing I want to, we have to do is we have to make sure that we're on time, and I'm like going with a year and a half, and I had to wait for you to say, be on time. You know, I was so let down and then all of a sudden he went, and we were sitting if you can picture this in a U shaped table, where there was no one lecturing from a lectern. He was right in the middle. They were all around as equals. And he said, Because Michael. If you're not on time, that means you don't respect, magic and magic, you don't respect Charles and Charles you respect Drexler and you don't respect Ewing and Karl Malone and Stockton and Chris Mellon, and it went right through the team, David Robinson, and it was like, Oh my God, it was like, instantaneous so that was really cool and it went well. And the next day, for 11 o'clock. Practice bed 10 o'clock after I had breakfast so is in San Diego. I went out of the hotel to see if our bus was there to just check in make sure because if you get all these players out there and there's no bus for them to go to that doesn't go over well a good look. Yeah and it's not an NBA city so it's not like we have, like if you're going to play a game in Phoenix or Chicago, you use the same bus company all the time except. So I go out there and I look and I, there's no one on the bus I stand up I go inside the bus and I look in the back and in the very back of the bus, there's one person sitting in there it's, it's Michael. He's there an hour beforehand. He's setting the tone for the whole freakin six weeks. Wow, and we never had anyone that came, I think 20 minutes early, was the closest we had. Now you travel with an NBA team.

51:46

NBA team the stars of that team come between two minutes and five o'clock, whatever the time is, we're leaving. That's when they get on the bus. Now I'm here if it's Michael if it's Coby, it magic, they always take you right to the time, under normal regular season, just the way it is. Yep, but not for these six weeks, and I thought that was an I thought that was again the brilliance of Chuck, knowing how to connect to people and, you know, and the players, believing in him, you know Yeah. You have to get buy in, we always want buy in whatever we do, they have to believe in you. I don't care what it is so. And they believed in them. So they bought into.

Phil White  52:32

Yeah, I love that I'm with that group, I'm sorry Tim do you want to go ahead. No, go, go, Okay, well, you mentioned that you know that dynamic between the six or seven leaders on the pistons and those different leadership styles and you said, you know, a lot of people don't know that because they didn't get to see inside that group, they just saw the tough physical play in the championships and all the excellence that resulted. Now take us inside those practices in Monte Carlo, which some people say is the best professional level basketball that's ever been played, and can you share an insight into that atmosphere and is that overhyped or is that true and what what was it like in the true insider's view from someone who was there

53:14

when scrimmage was really really good. You know, I mean, you know, you know the one scrimmage was really good because it was wonderful trash talking and stuff like that among the players and stuff, but I often tell people, that's not the best team I was ever with the Dream Team, by any means. Check in I had I'm looking on my wall in my office here Chuck and I coach the Eastern Conference all star team in 1990, in Miami, and that was the best team, we've ever coached. I mean that team was so freakin good members stucked in basically at almost a broken leg, Larry Bird, you know, couldn't play in 92 he was shell of themselves. So, and you know the one of the 12 best players Isaiah wasn't on the team, you know, so. And as a college player we wanted Shaquille O'Neal, I was

Phil White  54:08

gonna ask that late.

54:10

Later, you know, our dear, dear, dear, dear friend coach Kay, had a little influence, I think on that. And in. Back then, as opposed to now the head coach of the team had no voting power on who to put on team. Wow, now the head coach, and Jerry Calandra now Grant Hill have all the power. They put it wherever they want in the tea. Yes,

Phil White  54:37

we based on the dress the Shaq thing right now and then Tim I'll turn it back to you because I can see your mind changes every day. I don't think people understand the force that Shaq was at that time, when he was, let's say overlooked for dream game so yeah I

54:52

mean, you know, just coming out of LSU gonna be a rookie in the league for Orlando. He wasn't. He was iconic, I mean he was, he was so even though when you see pictures of him, you know, as a 20 year old, he, his body is so different than it became later on, when he was with the Lakers and stuff, but my God, he was still incredible force and the people and because the teams are so scared of us anyway, they would have loved seeing him. Come in. I mean, it would have been great, but it was a, you know we average winning by 47 points a game, you know then, but the team that we had in Miami was so incredible. I'm trying to look, I got it right here. I knew it, Scottie Pippen Larry Bird, healthy, Patrick Ewing, Robert Parrish was fabulous. Charles Barkley and who is incredible. Dennis Rodman was on this team. Isaiah, Reggie Miller who could shoot the eyes out. Kevin McHale, might have been the best back to the basket forward. Dominic Wilkins my player I hadn't Lanta up till then, who was Michael Jordan and Dominic were the two most exciting players in the league. Michael Jordan and Joe Dumars about that.

Phil White  56:18

Oh no, I take that off yeah I mean, coming off the

56:23

bench, even checking it

Phil White  56:24

goes to Wilt Chamberlain that's coming off the bench. Yeah,

56:29

I mean Oh wow, yeah. And you got to understand like back then. Tim Rodman was a guy that we can play in 48 minutes, he would not want to, he didn't want to come out of the game. And then when the game ended and he had 26 rebounds or something he played all 48 minutes. He would then go in, back then they had Stairmasters you remember that, yeah, yeah, right, right, go into our little locker room and he'd get on the Stairmaster for an hour, you know what

Phil White  57:00

that's like, yeah, that's like the story about Alex Honnold when he did the free solo climb, you know, up the face in Yosemite with no ropes and as one headline said you slip, you fall you die, it's pretty high consequence. And then people just thought well, he probably went out for a beer with his girlfriend. He went right back to the van that they will live in in the time and did two hours on his hangboard, hanging in different positions.

Tim DiFrancesco  57:25

It is incredible, I mean I had Metta World Peace formally run our test and, and, you know, he was like that he would, he would play, majority of the game, he would, he would spread he would make a beeline to his locker so he could change out of his jersey. Grab me on the way by and say, Let's go before the coach could even get to the locker room to do the post game, and and he tried to get a little bit in the weight room before and then have to come back. Listen to the coach and get get some more in after that, I mean, just, you know some people have that insatiable sort of hunger to, you know, just keep going and keep, keep pushing and keep pushing and, you know, along those lines, Brendan, I want to, I have this idea in my head that, you know with my background in physical therapy and strength and conditioning and and sort of thinking about what the evolution of that look like in the game. Over the years, I have this idea in my head that sort of MJ turned the tide on that and kind of put weightlifting into the mainstream of what you see now. Am I off on that am I, no, no we kicked his

58:35

ass so bad that I made Tim Grover Tim Grover if you call him, Tim Grover say Brendon sir made me a millionaire. Oh I love it. You know, and I'm thrilled because I loved him and we beat him up so bad that he literally found out who is someone that was pretty good. Because Tim didn't have a rep, back then. Any, and if someone said call this guy, he, they changed, like three or four calls, and then he kind of got an A gym with us, and they connected, they really hit it off. Yeah but, and Tim, Tim back then is not like he is now he's really polished he's smart, now you know dresses nice and all that. He wasn't like that then you know he had couple of quarters to put together no shoot no man, no he but man but he knew what the hell he was doing, you know, and, but I think yeah, I mean we didn't have a practice facility back then. We had no nutrition, right, We had no we had no way training we it, we had nothing. We had nothing. Yeah, I always say you know we didn't get what do they call that now when a guy pulls his abs, with a call that, you know, like, I know you're all sudden you'll see so and so's out for a hernia hernia. Yeah, stuff like that, or, you know, we didn't have any of those because no one worked on

Phil White  1:00:09

an oblique strain because they didn't have any twist Yeah. Before rocky four nobody was doing Russian twists.

1:00:17

Yeah, so I got when I was in LSU with Ben Simmons we had this wonderful, wonderful kid the second leading scorer on the team. Keith Hornsby his dad is Bruce Hornsby to piano player, right, and, and Keith has you know scored like 16 points a game he missed 16 games. He had two sports hernia surgeries in one season. You know, and if he plays instead of winning 19 games we win 25 or 26 games minimum because he's that good a player. But you know, when they get an injury like that I'm saying like, what a waste, you know, an injury on something like that but, you know, I think we overtrain, yeah.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:01:00

overthink it over overdo the process,

Phil White  1:01:02

it's like with all the wearables stuff like, obviously when you write a book called unplugged you might, in my case I might be slightly biased but the point is that we hate technology but it's that we're talking marginal gains How about like you said, Brendan you sought out your sleep first. You, you know, you make sure you're doing the big things first. Yeah, then worry about whether your watch says, red light, you can't train today your recovery score isn't high enough like imagine telling Brodmann that or run our test.

1:01:31

Yeah, I mean every, you know wonder my rules of coaching is that you coach every player differently. You know, and you don't treat every player the same, right, run our tests Rodman. Isaiah Colby, every one of you have to figure out what makes each one of them tick. Now you gotta be pretty damn good to do that, you know, especially if you're working with all 12 of them right Jim. Yeah, you got to know which buttons to push on them. And you know would do Mars, you might just say Joe. Here's a, here's a schedule and hand it to him. He's fine. You know what I mean. He's fine. He's a grown up, he's smart, mature, and other guys you got to be there on every exercise helping them and motivating him and doing so but you have to know what to do whatever you got. And, you know, and I think all that stuff, anything in excess isn't good. We know that. And I think it's great, but I think a lot of like analytics in our game. A game analytics in life, you know, analytics are really really important but guess what, you know Pat Riley and Chuck Daly and, you know, all of us want a lot of championships before we had these little guys working in the offices, you know, we looked at a stat sheet after the game that was our analytics, and we have an analytics for us, where determines how what affects winning for us, whether it be turnovers, rebounding, different thing. So, you have to figure out what's going to make you better. It's not every aspect but there's people that have kind of come into the space you're in, and other spaces, great business and have now tried to push their knowledge or what they're good at. And with maybe a little more emphasis, that's just a thought.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:03:24

No, I think that's, that's so true. I think the pendulum just swings we overreact in the short run to kind of this this newer sort of novel stuff at times and before we've really understood it. Of course there's gems and there's gold within anything if you if you look hard enough and you paying enough attention to what the nuances are that are actually fruitful, but we just, you know, it's like this all or nothing approach. I want to respect your time, Brendan and I do have two things I'm gonna add two questions I'm dying to I mentioned for so, you know, I recall reading a book, when I was a kid I would just get my hands on a book that was anything about the game of basketball and I, I don't remember the, the name of the book I just remember about Hugh Brown, talking about how he introduced the idea of tracking deflections, and that he used that as a, we're talking about analytics, we're talking about statistics a little bit as you know, deflections was a signal for him, that maybe, you know, many, many coaches many people around the game we're not, you know, nobody's tracking like a deflection of a pass, but that was that meant something for him

1:04:35

right yeah that was when after he was with me in Atlanta, his next coaching job was to New York Knicks, and he was with Rick Pitino, wow. And, and so the two of them use deflections, wow, I as a coach, have never used it. Yeah, it wasn't important. Interesting me, to me, right, right, right. But, you know, because you can't, you can't do everything right, you know, but those guys, they believed in pressing. Yeah. And so, if they wanted active hands and stuff like that and good defense. Okay, good. So that was something that they worked on, but that was a that was the thing if they had 35 deflections or something, you know, that was that that meant they were doing good.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:05:22

Yeah, I had I had to ask that because sometimes, yeah, I did I read that the right way it was.

Phil White  1:05:30

It was it. No, I wonder if Tim, that in rugby There's a famous Australian rugby coach at the club level. That said, Okay, I'm not down with all these, you know, 1000s of data points, but he said to be time on ground. So you get here. How long does it take you to either at practice or in games, how long does it take you to get back up and he tied that the effort and grin, so maybe it was something like that where again, like you said, Brendan to someone else another coach that that might be meaningless but for him that was like one thing he looked at because if one guy stays down. Oh man, yeah, maybe it's that oblique strain and now I'm going to be out for 16 weeks whereas another guy gets hit even harder but he boom pops right back up and this is after 70 minutes of play in rugby they play both ways and you can't have rolling subs if you sub out, you're done for the game so maybe just for that coach, it was a similar thing to the deflections with Qb and Rec.

1:06:26

Yeah, my, my take on that is anyone who plays rugby toughest guy in standard damn gram as long as you want so if you're playing in the Premier League, they fall over if you blow on them over it in football over in your, you know, you run by a guy and steal the ball from they fall down and they act like they just got shot. You know, so I think it's a little different for rugby, all respect for those guys.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:06:51

Yeah, Phil, you bring up the word grid and, you know, Brett and I have one of the things I really wanted to kind of dig a little bit and kind of understand from you, you've, you've just, you know the longevity, at which you've, you know, been able to be at such a high level of what you've done and you've just been around so many different people and and, you know, stories that are probably trials and tribulations stories or success or, you know, almost success stories. Do you have somebody that stands out as a player, maybe it's a player or or coach who, you know, they just, they just kept on chipping away, they just kept on and it wasn't in the cards for them but you know this individual stands out as resilient as, as, as a definition of grit for you.

1:07:41

That's a, that's a good one. Because right now in the time that we're in, you know, pandemic era. Yeah, you know, and, you know, we're almost two years into it and I'm not sure it could go for another five or 10 years, who knows. Yeah, to different degrees, but I've been a big believer in, You know, mental skill mental skill training. I've seen so many people during this time, get affected, in and out of sport, of course, I'm more concerned about at a sport. I'm concerned about people, whether they're policemen military moms and dads losing jobs and, you know. So resilience obviously is something that we really talked about but I think, you know, adaptability is something I think that you have to. I think right now you have to really be able to reinvent yourself, and constantly. We use the term pivot. Just a basketball term, you know, two summers ago, you know, four months after the pandemic we had all of our events canceled, you know, A quarter million dollars, we'd lost in events that we would normally run, I didn't lose quarter million dollars in cash. It was revenue that I was going to get. And so you had to figure out different ways, but what I found during this whole process of studying this and that, and I watch it now in baseball. I love World Series and playoffs and in every sport, and all of a sudden, and you've seen this, you see players that are playing in an incredibly high level in any sport, and all of a sudden. i There's a guy in one of the baseball teams, it's like one for 27 in a series right now. How can that happen, because you lost confidence. And so I worry about people losing confidence. But I think the greatest thing that I try to provide to people, and I understand how important it is, is the word hope. I think cope is so when you lose hope, that's when you're really going to struggle. And so I constantly working with people whether players to business people I do a lot of corporate consulting on hope. And I think it's so, so important but I've had players. I you know I had. I had Spud Webb, you know, back then a fourth round pick five foot six 137 pounds. I had him come to Atlanta. No one wanted him. And sure enough, our, our starting guard gets hurt, and or another guy holds out on the contract guy makes a team. We're going to cut them about 10 different times during his first year, and end up in December, someone saw him at an MBA, like pregame dunk the ball at five, six, so they put them in a damn slam dunk contest, I got the best guy in the world Dominic Wilkins on my team guy goes and wins a slam dunk contest at five foot six. He stayed in the league for 12 years. And I love that, you know I had Nate Robinson, I had Nate Robinson in New York, Nate Robinson. He just believed that he was better than everyone. I remember when he came in, he flew from Seattle to try out the day before the draft. And I said, he took a red eye and he got in at seven in the morning, at Kennedy airport. And I said, sleep in, go to hotel sleeping, and I'll call you about three o'clock in the afternoon come over to our practice facility, we'll work out, coming right from the airport.

1:11:39

He shows up, eight o'clock in the morning. Hey, ready to go. And then after he does his little workout. He then challenges Isaiah Thomas to a shooting contest right i j is the president of the team General Manager and I'm like going boy you're not too smart, you know you're doing, and next thing you know, Nate, goes out there and Isaiah goes nice he still could make shots. Sure, he goes out and shoots left handed and Isaiah shoot right handed, and he beats Isaiah. And I said to myself, this guy, he's gonna be amazing and we drafted him, and, and then you know he gets into slam dunk contests and back then the rules were different. He missed 14 Straight dunks and won the slam dunk contest, because under 15 dunk it was incredible, but he missed 14 in a row that that type of thing he never would quit. And I think that's you know that's kind of a cool thing, you know that you look forward to people, not because they're small, but they're just, but I you know, and I probably have about 50 more guys like that that just, you know, mentally just touch you.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:12:48

Well, start thinking about those other 50 that part part two, we're gonna, we're gonna need some,

Phil White  1:12:56

we need some Dominique stories. We got so many notes here between us so buckle up for parts two 326.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:13:06

Be ready Brenda be ready, um, talk to talk to listeners about where they can find you, what you're doing, what is coaching you all about and, and your podcast and everything else.

1:13:18

Yeah, coaching you is about really just helping people in any field, want to coach we have people that are in business because of the guests we have on our podcast, you know, They're just people that are their success stories, I think we you would agree Tim from the boardroom to the locker room, you know, it all works and so you can go to coaching you live.com coaching the letter you. live.com is our website, just click, or go to Apple or Spotify and all of our podcasts are there. And then koju live calm, you know, is our website, you know, for our events and clinics and stuff like that, you can follow me on Twitter at Brendan ser br re n da N su H ER, and then coaching at coaching underscore U is our other Twitter account. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of how we do our thing we're just a simple little company, you know, just trying to survive.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:14:22

We, we sure are grateful and you know I've got now notes on notes of what I came to the table with and now you know you've doubled down on all those so yeah like I said, be ready for part two, I leave everybody with the mic in their hand and the chance to tell us what it means for, from your perspective to be this is the basketball strong podcast and what it means in in your eyes, in your mind to be basketball strong and and be as spiritual as as technical as, as, wherever you want to go with this, what does that mean to you to be basketball strong.

1:15:00

That's a heck of a good question but you know, you know basketball is just been a vehicle for me to try to connect to people, and all I try to do is, and I'm driven by it now is just to help people, and I have a great great desire to help people, interactive coaching, interactive playing to just help them in life and, and that's that I think is is what it's about. I just love that you're using your talent, your platform to do this, you and Phil are doing this and I think it's, I think it's fabulous and but basketball is strong. It's been a huge part of my life and hopefully will continue for a long time. Well,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:15:43

that's powerful. Thank you, Brandon.

1:15:46

Oh you guys Welcome and good luck to you guys, I really am. I'm excited for you.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:15:51

Thank you so much. Right now I'm pretty courting stopped.

Phil White  1:15:57

Um, Brandon is at some point the three of us need to do a book where we just collect your stories about life and leadership and the game and

1:16:05

yeah I know I know a lot of people want to do books. I don't know if I can sit down that long but yeah,

Phil White  1:16:11

you know, No, I think it would be doing people a disservice to not collect some of these some of these lessons in in a single format,

1:16:20

I did, I did. I did one book, you know, kind of a play on words, and it was Chuck Dale coaching. Chuck Daly, coaching, you

Phil White  1:16:33

know, I know I saw I looked because when in the race, it's in my notes because I wanted to get to it and a man, and I haven't

1:16:40

read it, he wouldn't. He wouldn't let me write it till he died. Oh wow. Yep. Wow, he wouldn't let me do it till he passed, and then it took me about 10 months to do it because I kept crying all the time.

Phil White  1:16:54

Well here's, here's the deal. If I send you a couple of books will you send me a signed copy of that back because I, my goodness.

1:17:02

I self published it, and word, and I've been out for

Phil White  1:17:05

several years. That is an outrage. I know I,

1:17:09

my first copy I ever when I self published it, I remember Buzz Williams, who was the coach of Marquette at the time now Texas a&m Yep, he wanted to he wanted to first copy. I shouldn't What do you want to first.

Phil White  1:17:22

You know, he's like me, he's like me.

1:17:25

He offered $1,000

Phil White  1:17:29

Wow, so you're saying I'm gonna have to go somebody paid 10,000 Now,

1:17:33

I gave it to him for those. Wow, it paid it paid for the publishing.

Phil White  1:17:39

Well, darn it, well, well I find a copy on eBay for 20 grand then I

1:17:44

was funny, I saw the other day,

Phil White  1:17:50

weights out there, I tell you on the interwebs out there, it wasn't Bill Walsh,

1:17:55

but it was someone that had a book, I think, might have been Bill Walsh, and it was like

1:18:07

inside notes from his meetings or something like that on Amazon for 14 $100.

Phil White  1:18:15

This is a day and age where people are paying $8,000 for Steph Curry's used mouthguard that he threw into the crowd, so I don't know why, what kind of the SEC individual would want that piece of memorabilia.

1:18:28

Funny is my, my son now who's 38, when he was a winner, since he was like, five, six years old. Every. His birthday is May 28 And every Memorial Day, we would play the bowls, and the Easter conference finals. So every year, guess what he got for Michael Jordan sneakers. Wow. Yeah.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:18:54

Oh my god, Jeanette,

1:18:56

and Michael, and James Jordans job was to bring him to me you know and stuff. Oh, come on, Michael knew he held the recording back up Tim Gosh. Michael knew he had to give them to me to hold the Oh we were. So wow, so we're playing in my first year there, we're playing in Eastern Conference Finals. It's one one in a series game three. It's the birth is birthdays that day, and it's a Saturday afternoon, and we're up 19 points. Second half, he goes for 37 Or is 47 in the game they beat us by two. And after the game I said to James I said hey, give me the kids, the sneakers, I got to get a little birthday party back at the hotel for my son. And he, and Chicago Stadium was falling down, it's an old building piece of crap and. And so, as I'm leaving to go. I said, James, where's the shoes, Michael won't give them, because he scored all these points. I said, you tell your son to go F himself. Tell me kid's father that awesome so pitch right because now, as I told my wife, we're gonna have them and my son doesn't know he's right. Yeah, right. And so that night, ironically, two o'clock in the morning. Back then there's like really no cell phones like we write, right, my phone in the hotel rings, and it's Isaiah, and he's been walking on Lake Michigan like for six hours. Imagine nowadays you mentioned a superstar was he he's walking there. She says, I have an idea. Meet me in the lobby. Meet me in the lobby my family's all sound asleep in the room, and I go down to meet him for like three hours and he says, I get this idea about Jordan rules, and that's Jordan rules that night.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:21:03

Oh, how about that. Yeah,

1:21:06

this should never be this another game. So we've been in game six to beat, beat, beat his ass and Game six and then James comes in with the shoes autograph, and he says he apologizes and shoes are my oldest shoes I got him with Michaels autograph. You don't know where they are. Oh, and I thought,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:21:38

1.50 my gosh,

Phil White  1:21:41

wow, you know what Tim. I do actually have this on recording because

Tim DiFrancesco  1:21:48

you can't use any of that now.

Phil White  1:21:50

I was, I was just looking it up but I got it yet though for Tim and I to geek out on oh yeah no yes yeah,

1:21:58

yeah.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:22:00

Brendan did you ever overlap with Gary Vee, did you,

1:22:03

did I know I know Gary Very well. Yeah,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:22:05

I figured yeah he was a he was a mentor of mine and and really the reason why I had a shot in the league in the first place and

Phil White  1:22:13

we've got renewing tomorrow.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:22:15

Yeah we've got Gary on tomorrow so

Brendan Suhr  1:22:17

say hi yeah I love them, I will. The trainers in the NBA. When I came in and 79. You know, We're just incredible. Oh, man, fabulous man and I had this guy in in Orlando, Joe tool in Atlanta JoJo just iconic good friend of Gary Yeah, wonderful guy. And then, and then in Detroit, I had this cartoon character Mike Abdon our.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:22:50

I was wondering how you were gonna describe.

1:22:53

Yeah, and we love Michael, of course, of course, and trainers then we're just phenomenal. Yeah. Have strength and conditioning coaches

Tim DiFrancesco  1:23:03

and, no, no, No, exactly. Yeah but, you know,

Phil White  1:23:08

amazing, I love again a rugby story so our friend Nick Gill has a whole chapter like my book with GMR for my the sport psychologist, you may know from the champions mind that he did a few years ago. So we basically just it's a book full of case studies and one of them is Nick Gill who's the strength coach of the All Blacks and what people that don't know rugby don't understand is that the coach. Yeah, the coach, the coaches were, you know, they're so wrapped up in the sky box they are not allowed to be an international rugby on the touchline, so I didn't add. So Nick has a little earpiece, it's not the giant headset like the NFL coaches have all the assistance, but it says water, like he is the water boy, who then gets when it when they go to treat a player can pull the captain over while they're treating the guy and say, hey coach says, Coach Hansen as it was then or now coach Foster says, And they, they also have a player who is out injured what but can still, you know, run around, be like the assistant waterboy so Karen read the great New Zealand captain from the last few years who only just recently retired last year, there was a crack in the. There's a great documentary that all or nothing series on Amazon Prime, on the All Blacks, and it's the best one is the best one out of all of those, and, and they make a joke about Karen Reed being the most expensive waterboy on the planet.

1:24:34

Perfect sense. Oh, yeah, but,

Phil White  1:24:37

but a similar thing that guy's just doing yeoman's work so he's trying to relate coaches orders. He's trying to run the assistant waterboy who's one of the injured players, and he's basically playing de facto assistant coach while trying to treat injuries.

1:24:50

Love that I did not know any of that. That's great. Hey, please. Tim say hi to Gary for

Tim DiFrancesco  1:24:56

I will and one of these times, you may Chris will be in one place, Phil, you'll get in there we'll we'll, we'll be able to have a, have a beer or have a coffee or something and it would be wonderful. Yeah,

1:25:09

a and feel, feel free. Anytime I can help you guys. Yeah, it would just call me Okay. Gosh,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:25:16

thank you so much,

Phil White  1:25:17

Mike lines, this has been, I feel like I've been in a master class and this is yeah just such a blessing. Thank you, Brendon,

1:25:23

I really appreciate you guys are fabulous, you're gonna do well in this really good well,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:25:27

we're just, we're trying to keep up with you but thank you so don't don't

1:25:31

do that. I'm too old to compete against and I'm just trying to just try to slide away man.

Phil White  1:25:40

Thank you, man. Thanks, Tim, do you want to stay on for a minute.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:25:43

Yes sir. Yeah, I'm gonna go thanks Brendan Thank

Phil White  1:25:45

you Brendan.

1:25:46

Thank you, bye bye bye Oh

Phil White  1:25:48

bless.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:25:55

All right,

Phil White  1:25:56

dude, that is the best story that has to be left on the cutting room floor. So I got, I got this thing running called Cool note in the background, it's what he does. And it doesn't stop recording until you end the meeting but I've also got zoom running right when I hit plat pause, and I said okay, I stopped that. It doesn't always stop it because I got caught out running behind.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:26:22

Hey, at least we have that for us to, You know,

Phil White  1:26:24

so we know the true origin of the Jordan roles, and we also know the only assistant coach to relay a story to James Jordan and the story is Tell your son, aka the GO TO GO FSM. Guys, if we never accomplish anything with this thing, I think we just want it, that's like the Mount Rushmore of stories, you know,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:26:49

savage that that guy, you know, that's the thing is like, you could do six of these with him and we

Phil White  1:26:55

didn't even get to Nique we didn't get to get. I mean, how do we not even do that because it would have been 20 It would have been a now is a 20 hour episode with with Coach Brendan like what why God. No, I would do it, I would sit here for 20 As long as somebody handed me coffee I'd be going.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:27:14

Well, he'll be he'll be on for a second round at some point and we'll. I mean, that'll be that'll be fantastic. Well, I'll tell you, you think that guy was a character. Wait, wait, I mean, VD tomorrow, I'm telling you, he is a

Phil White  1:27:30

couple of stories from Jad already about going to BTS.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:27:35

He's a Livewire

Phil White  1:27:37

aim it's like you better hope he doesn't have like two bottles of Cabernet in him already. You guys are so screwed. We're

Tim DiFrancesco  1:27:44

so screwed. No, it's a, it's gonna be a fun one. And we'll just with Gary, it won't. Oil boy he's going to, he's, he, he gets, he goes his direction, no matter what. So, it's, it's gonna be a fun one but

Phil White  1:28:02

dude that was awesome. No, that's awesome. You know I think the play with Pippin, is I go to his publisher to the, to the like the VP of PR and marketing for his publisher, where it says, literally there's a page on there that it says for media inquiries about this book please contact and it has our email address right now. So I think I do that, and then if we don't get it for you that then you work jarred or whoever you know cuz I definitely want it takes the burden off of you and to I've done this before, like with Eric Larsen for creating my next book with Jamie another guy that's sold like 9 million books worldwide. I just went through the publisher and they were like Yeah, no worries, how about this time all this time it's like Yeah, can I send a zoom invite sure bang done.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:28:48

Let's go, baby. Let's go.

Phil White  1:28:51

And if it fails, we'll shoot we'll try something else. But yeah, is that, yes, that book coming out and it's gonna annoy a lot of people and surprise a lot of people right cuz I think, I think it's, it's the same kind of mentality behind it, where you wouldn't go back in the game because they told to play for Tony not for him, right, and he has already said in terms of promoting it, the last answer is not about the team it was basically just about Michael and they threw in a bit about the rest of us so I think he's P owed about it so that book is going to be pretty explosive pretty controversial.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:21

Okay, get that email in there let's go. Alright,

Phil White  1:29:24

I'll do it, I'll do it.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:25

Wait, you're gonna miss it 100% of the shots we don't take right.

Phil White  1:29:29

Hey, that's it man, yeah nothing claims if it runs out then it runs out.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:34

Man, big deal. Now we'll just keep chipping away like, like, like Henry tells us keep knocking baby, keep knocking. Yeah, I

Phil White  1:29:41

love that keep knocking.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:42

Yay, brother. We're built. We're building something baby. We're building something.

Phil White  1:29:49

Rock on.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:50

Thanks for your expertise, thanks for your hard work,

Phil White  1:29:52

not so good, well you got your notes you got your questions and so anyway so we're coming in passionate and prepared and when you combine those two things, guess what that means double use or de.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:30:03

They love that you know I think I, you know the the number of people. The thing that I love so far is that we're getting people that are on a lot of shows they're doing a lot of stuff regularly and then you know the number of times that they're saying to your question or my question. Oh that's a good question. You know, they don't say that for, you know, just anything because they're used to getting the same old series of questions that are not, you know, two layers below there on the surface and it's just you know, tell us about this

Phil White  1:30:30

as lazy as lazy interviewing yeah I mean, I learned that with my first cover story was on Ben Harper, you know, the two time Grammy winner. And he has a reputation for walking out interviews and so it was like way better not met and I knew it was gonna be the cover so that was my like education and I prep for that thing for probably 10 or 12, every interview he done for like two years before I read it, or I listened to it. And then I thought, now I know the list of questions and not ask. Now we can get the work.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:31:03

Well, it's a pleasure brother, I'm gonna rock and roll you do the same, and we'll do this again tomorrow I'll get. We'll get Ed, we'll get VT going going on some good stuff

Phil White  1:31:12

oh yeah and yeah, no matter how little or much read while I say that Jed

Tim DiFrancesco  1:31:17

said, Oh yeah, trust me, he's right on the money to

Phil White  1:31:21

sweet signing all right, brother. Cheers, bro. Talk to you tomorrow.

1:31:25

Peace.