3-Time NBA Champion Jud Buechler on What it Was Like When Michael Jordan Returned to the Chicago Bulls and Why Scottie Pippen & Steve Kerr Were Such Great Teammates (Episode 8)

Tim DiFrancesco  00:16

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the basketball strong Podcast. I'm Tim DeFrancesco. And I'm here with my co host, Phil white. This podcast is not just for basketball junkies, it's for anyone who loves to hear the human stories behind great people. Our mission is to bring experts, legends, and hidden gems from within and surrounding the game to one place, so we can share their stories and insight with you. You'll hear the stories behind the game, including trials and tribulations, setbacks, wins, losses and lessons. Before we jump into this episode, Phil, and I need your help. Take a moment to smash that follow and subscribe button and then go leave us a review. The follow and subscribe button is that little plus sign on the top right if you're listening on Apple podcasts, and that's what's going to help us to reach as many people as possible and share with you how we can all be living a basketball strong life. That is what Phil and I are here to do. So we appreciate it. And thank you in advance. This isn't just a podcast, it's a community. And it's a movement. And we want it to feel that way. So be sure to visit us at www dot basketball strong podcast.com. And you can also email us directly at Tim. That's ti m at basketball strong podcast.com. We want to hear from you. So take us up on that. If you subscribe, give us a review and drop us an email. We'll send you a basketball strong t shirt and then automatically enter you in our rolling premium prize giveaway contest. And I'm telling you you won't want to miss that. Now, let's go get basketball strong. Our guest today is three time NBA champion Judd Busch Tyler Judd played alongside Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and the rest of the Chicago Bulls as they ran roughshod over the league from 1996 to 1998. Judd was one of the original three and D guys, and generally did whatever those bulls championship teams needed on any given night. In this episode, Judd shares the inside story of the three bulls championships that followed, MJ has returned from baseball. He also gets into what he learned from the Hall of Fame coach lute Olson, while at the University of Arizona, how his college teammate Steve Kerr mentored him during his NBA journey. What happened in MJS, first practice back from his baseball hiatus, and so much more. Let's get into the conversation. For you don the varsity jersey.

Jud Buechler  03:03

What What is that

Tim DiFrancesco  03:05

look like as you're developing towards what then turned into the trajectory for you? What does that look like day to day? Who are your mentors at that time? How are you developing your competitive spirit and your love for both basketball and volleyball?

Jud Buechler  03:21

Yeah, well, you know, I grew up here in Solana Beach, California. And I think I just started playing my dad got me involved. Playing basically was called Snuffy, Snuffy basketball and, and I just started playing and had some great love for the sport, and just fell in love with it. And then, you know, from there, my dad got me involved in a ton of basketball camps. During the summer I went to a camp called Snow valley. It was up in Santa Barbara. And it was pretty hardcore camp was was heard heard Lindsey was the main guy who ran it, but I think the van Gundy is actually I think I met Stan van Gundy there when I was really, really young. And it was super early in his career, but it was just camps during the summer. And then basically, you know, you know, youth basketball, and I had some success. And then in seventh and eighth grade, I went to a junior high called Earl Warren and I was I was one of the taller kids and I started to develop a decent game and I, um, I was the first seventh grader like in the history of the school to play on the eighth grade team. And, you know, we had great records, we went 35 and one my, my eighth grade year, I mean, my when I was in seventh grade, playing on the eighth grade team, and then when I was in eighth grade, we went 27 You know, and that's when I really fell in love with it, you know, as it is a kid when you start having success and you start, you know, having some accolades, and oh, Early on, that's when I really fell in love with the sport.

Tim DiFrancesco  05:04

You mentioned your dad was, what did he play? Did he was he was he just a sport lover? Or did he how what? What kind of spurred that?

Jud Buechler  05:14

Yeah. So he, he grew up in La Jolla here and he was a little boy in high school, and he played baseball, he played a lot of volleyball, that's kind of where my love for the volleyball kind of kicked in as well. He was a beach volleyball player, as well as an indoor player. And he taught school and coached teams, basically baseball and volleyball for about 40 years in the San Diego school district here. So he was a coach, you know, and I think he just, you know, tried to get me in sports that just kind of give me a little taste of everything. So I played baseball, I played soccer, you know, soccer is always kind of the first sport out here that you play. And then he got me involved in got me involved in basketball and volleyball at a pretty young age. So it was it was really in his hands.

Phil White  06:07

It's great. But then watching for the school system, juggle your parents both pretty serious about the academic side as well.

Jud Buechler  06:16

Yeah, I think so. I mean, that was always, you know, definitely a big deal in our house was, you know, the academic side of it as well. You know, the homework and the projects and everything it was when he gets more serious when you're in high school, you know, it was always kind of like, obviously, it's changed a lot since I was in high school. But there was always this feeling of like, listen, you're not you can, you have to be only not only a good athlete, a good player, whatever sport you read, but you have to have the grades to get to college to obviously and to have those scores, SAP scores, and a high grade point average was definitely a priority. And now

Phil White  07:00

Now it's interesting. Um, what benefits do you think you derive from playing soccer from then obviously playing volleyball at a very high level as well and playing basketball? Because some people these days especially seem to specialize so young, some of these kids?

Jud Buechler  07:16

Yeah, that's a great question. Because I go back to Tiger Woods. I think Tiger Woods changed youth sports forever, because he was such a prodigy and started so young and just jumped into one thing, and just focus the entire time on golf, obviously, and turned out to be, you know, arguably, maybe the greatest golfer forever. I don't follow golf that closely. So I know there's some other good golfers maybe. Yeah, in the history of the sport, but, ya know, you know, that that's a great question. Because when I was growing up, you know, in high school, I played basketball, and I played baseball, and I wanted to play football. My dad was let me play football, but But you played whatever, you know, whatever season it was, that's, that's kind of what you play. You know, so I ended up playing in high school, volleyball, basketball, and baseball, and, and tried to do you know, a lot of those. But I think, you know, early on soccer is just such a great sport for kids because it's kind of your introductory into what it's like to be on a team, you know, and everything that goes into that, right? So it's the discipline at that young young age of being on time is a huge thing right for everything in life. But especially I mean everything in life, it is your job, for sports, for everything and so you learn all these little things with soccer, you know, how to share the ball, how to be on a team, what does that mean practicing you develop your practice habits. And just being a good teammate and what that means and so I learned that there and then obviously the volleyball side, volleyball was a sport that just came really really easy to me. I put so much work in on my basketball that I was going to go play college volleyball as well. I had a number of scholarship offers to the top to the top schools to go play volleyball but I just felt that I ended up choosing University of Arizona is where I played basketball. I just felt like I need to see how this basketball thing goes. first and then if the volleyball if it doesn't work out, I had I had a scholarship waiting at UCLA like a fifth year senior if the basketball didn't work out I'm really happy it did. But But anyway, yeah, just all those things. You know, youth sports is changed so much especially. We didn't have the club scene. There wasn't club sports really back then. You know, now there's, you know, club basketball, there's club volleyball and it's actually become bigger than the school as you guys know. Then, right, the actual teams at the schools, you know, it's like, some kids don't even play for their high school, which is just sad. They're like, No, I'm gonna play club because that's what I'm getting recruited. That's what the club teams like an all star team of the best players. And so a lot of the college recruiters, whether it's volleyball, basketball, girls, softball, girls soccer, you can go watch club and you're seeing, you know, all the best players on these two teams compete instead of in high school, you know, you may have one, two or three really high level kids, and then the rest of the kids aren't at the same level. So the whole game is changed quite a bit.

Phil White  10:40

No, definitely. So you mentioned obviously, where you went to college, and that school has, you know, a legendary basketball coaching staff. Can you talk about maybe a life lesson or two that you learned from those coaches?

Jud Buechler  10:54

Yeah, well, Rudolph, who was the coach there at the time, I was it came down to UCLA, or Arizona, and I just felt really comfortable with with Lou in it and his wife at that time, who's passed away, Bobby, they both passed away, but I just felt super comfortable there. And he, he really preach fundamentals. I mean, we worked on basic, basic fundamentals every single day. You know, from you know, all the different aspects of the game from passing off the toss back to dribbling. I mean, we've worked on basic pivoting your foot pivots, we did some of the basic, most basic things in basketball. And he taught fundamentals every single day. I think that's really where I developed olts is ultimately my work ethic from him. And we, you know, we I was on good teams. And, you know, along the way, you kind of learn what it's like to be on a good team, and how to win, you know, winning, you need, you need to kind of learn what that looks like and what that feels like and how to put that together. And Coach Olson just did an incredible job for all of us that went

Phil White  12:11

there during that time. I believe Steve Kerr played under lute as well. Is that correct?

Jud Buechler  12:18

Yeah. So Steve, Steve and I played together. My my freshman year. He had an ACL injury that he had her pie on the wall games. That I don't know if you remember that, but But yeah, he was I'll

Phil White  12:33

never forget. He was on that World Championship squad was me.

Jud Buechler  12:38

Yeah, he was on the World Championship team. And he, you know, that was early on for ACL. Right. So Right. That's my major deal. I mean, you guys remember the size of those knee braces that you just cast? Yeah, exactly. So he, you know, so when he was that year that he sat out, excuse me, I was a freshman. And then my sophomore year, back we had a guy named Shawn Elliott, who was pretty darn good, too. Oh, yeah. If he's a decent player long, for four or five, we had a bunch of we had a bunch of pros on that team. I don't want to list them all. But he came back and then that would that year in 1988. We went to the Final Four we ended up losing to Oklahoma, who had a you know, at Stacey King, movie play lock. Harvey grant, they had a really good team, but you know, going, getting a chance to go in the Final Four was an all time you know, huge deal for me an all time accomplishment. I actually I was I came off the bench that year. And I you know, one of my fondest memories is scoring a basket. I think I had two points, but it didn't matter. I scored. I scored a basket as the final four. And I thought I died and gone to have made a new the house it was good to stop. Yeah, we had a lot of good players on those teams.

Tim DiFrancesco  14:01

Yeah, for sure. And yeah, I mean, you you had incredible success at in high school as well, I think three sectional titles and we're, you know, in that role, though, you were you were the man. I mean, right. You were you had great teammates, I'm sure in a great or program but was there when you transitioned into as you just described a little bit more of a you know, find the role that you can fill and fill it with with Arizona and a bunch of, you know, lot surefire, you know, lottery picks was there was that a transition that was tough for you or that was actually pretty easy?

Jud Buechler  14:40

No, it you know, what happened to me with it? You know, you're in high school, you're kind of the top player right with other we had other good players that I was the top player and then you go to the next level, and now everyone's a top player. Right, everybody's elite and then you. You keep trying to figure out like, how, how am I gonna get on the court? Like what? Like, how can I play? How can I help this team? Whatever role that is, I mean, you know, my NBA career, I was a role player the entire time, I never really started over 11 year career and, and I just always wanting to feel like appreciated. Like I brought something to the table, whatever that was, whatever how small that role was, I wanted to play it. So back to your original question. You're kind of a star in high school, and then you go to Arizona, and then I'm planning on going to get shot Elliott every day in practice. Every single day, you know, it's a it's a growth process, because you go wait a second, I'm not as good as I thought I was, this is the next level, okay, I need to get stronger. I need to get in the weight room, I need to get my vertical up. I need to become a better shooter and you just kind of go, I thought I'd become a better player. And that's where back to coach Olson is that he really developed players, you know, we not until later down the line that he started getting like McDonald's all American play. You know, I got the Richard Jefferson the Luke Waltons, the Andre McDonald was you know that, you know, gaming star. We had had those that dead. I mean, we had like, Sean Elliott was like, we had two guys on that team, Shawn Elliott, a guy named Craig McMillan that were McDonald's, all American. All Americans, the rest of us were just, you know, top level high school guys that needed to be developed. And so it was the whole thing. It was the physical part, it was mentally getting stronger, and just growing and getting a better, better grasp of the game. But you just have to make those adjustments. And then I ended up starting some games my freshman year, but it was a role player and my sophomore year, my junior year, they put me You know, I switched positions. And so I started a bunch of games, my junior year, and then my senior year, I was the captain and obviously starting and playing a lot. But then, you know, then you go the NBA. And it's even even worse now. It's like, going against guys that are 10 years older than me that have grown men that have been in the NBA for 10 years, you know, and so that now you're back to square one again, how do I what do I need to do? How am I going to improve and become an important part and to be able to help a team win games, whatever that role was, if your roles, hey, you're gonna come in and play defense for five minutes and come out, just just do it to the best of your ability, I think because of my attitude, and the fact that I was willing to do that it kept me in the league a lot longer than, than I than I ever thought,

Tim DiFrancesco  17:48

where that where that attitude come from? Where did that was that instilled in you? Was that just that was you don't know it was there? Well,

Jud Buechler  17:57

yeah, it's a great question. I I'm not quite sure because a lot of guys don't have that. Right. That's exactly. You know, a lot of guys, I don't know, I think it was, again, from kind of my mom and dad, it just kept me grounded. Yeah, I have to say that I was I had an incredible group of friends, that whenever I thought I was getting a big head, they would display me right down to earth. You know, I, I didn't have people around me that were telling me the greatest thing of all time. You know what I feel like? I feel like in this day and age, from a very young age, these kids have their group of people, they're supporting cast, whether it be their parents, their friends, agents early on that just tell them how great they are, you know, and build them up that they're the next greatest thing. And that's not doing them any favors, because if they fail, then they're then they're lost. Right? What do you mean, you told me I was the greatest thing ever? Well, now I'm failing because they're gonna fail. Failure is a part of life. It's a part of getting better, you know, they'll think that you, you learn more from failure than you do success. And I believe that, you know, then, and so I don't I'm not quite sure. I think it was my parents. I had great coaching and a great high school coach. And I got a man named Neville saner, who played at UCLA under John Wooden, so he had like the whole wooden mindset thing going. And then I had a great college coach. And so I think it was coaching. And my parents and also my peer group kept kept me in line kept me straight. Within that,

Phil White  19:44

that wouldn't mindset what were some takeaways from from Coach wooden's philosophy that he was able to instill in you with regard to the mental game and your kind of your mindset approach to the game of basketball.

Jud Buechler  19:58

Yeah, you know, you I ended up using my daughter was a very high level, she was on a full ride scholarship and started and played volleyball at UCLA. So just just his, you know, everything about John Wooden mean, you know, the pyramid of success and all that. But you know what, one of the things I really took away from him as as a player, but but more so as a parent of a high level is just that I, you know, you have to be so thankful about that you're even in the position that you're in, then I don't know if that I don't know if that came out, right. But like, I was always just so grateful. I never took anything for granted. I never thought oh, I'm in the NBA. I'm gonna be in the NBA for 12 years, you know, no, I fought and I caught and I knew I was lucky. I knew I appreciated being there. I felt very fortunate to be a part of that. I felt, you know, in return, when I was watching my daughter play games, I just celebrated the fact that she was out there. And if she made mistakes, you Everyone makes mistakes, right? And you just move on from it. And just celebrate the fact that how lucky we are to be healthy and be out there and be competing at that level.

Phil White  21:22

know a lot of those are really perspective. Yeah, perspective. And then coach wooden's emphasis on gratitude and just feeling that you're blessed, acting acting like you're blessed and trying to make the most.

Jud Buechler  21:36

Yeah, and I think I think a lot of that is, unfortunately missing in today's day and age, in sports across the board, not just basketball, right? All of you know, it's just, there needs to be I think the word you said that I should have brought up is gratitude. Right? It's like, you know, my daughter would go back and she'd be serving for matchpoint in the Pac 12 Championship, you know, and, and I just if she missed it, I just hug her afterwards and just would tell her, Hey, I'm so proud of you to even be in that position. Yeah, be confident enough in yourself in front of all those people on TV, to even serve the ball. You know what I mean? If you miss you, it's okay. I'm just I just took a different mindset with it and just, you know, on gratitude, appreciation and just being super proud of the situation.

Phil White  22:28

No, I love that. You meant you mentioned when you got to the league, having a claw and scrap and just work your tail off every day but probably during the season then even more so in the offseason I'm guessing what did that process teach you about yourself? And how did you really apply what's now called I guess, a growth mindset to your time in the NBA that allows you to stick around for a dozen plus years?

Jud Buechler  22:55

Yeah, I don't know I I just knew that I pretty much had to work as hard or harder than everybody else. And whatever that meant, you know, and I had I had really good strength and conditioning coaches along the way that had programs for me, offseason programs, and I would follow these things religiously, whenever it said I would do unless I wasn't I was injured, but I wasn't injured a whole lot. But I mean, I would follow whatever, whatever they said for me to do, I would always actually probably do more, you know, I mean, that was that was the only way I could survive is to work super hard. And the majority of my career you know, I was never really on a guaranteed contract I was on a minimum make good contract for most of my career and cut it until the very very end when I had a couple of really good years but I was able to secure a bigger contract but you know, that's that keeps you humble that keeps you hungry when you're you know when your jobs on the line and you're competing against other guys that you know I knew they were working right they're working on the offseason you know and so I had to step my game up and just you know, be be smart and I think you know again I'll circle back I'll take a lot of my longevity in the NBA was due to my attitude my work ethic and the fact that you know, i Someone once told me Listen, you know, the head coach is really playing you know, an NBA you play a DD what like eight nine guys in rotation most of the time to me, that's what they play. And so, someone told me Listen, if you're, if you're 1011 and 12, which I was for a lot of my career coach just won't have to deal with doesn't want he doesn't 110 11 and 12 complaining, right? You know, cuz he's dealing with one through eight, one through nine, you know the guys that are out there. So I just worked my tail off, and just made sure that when I got a chance I was ready. But I never complained. Well, I think there's a lot of guys at the end of benches in all sports that are thinking I should be out there and you always want to play we all want to play if you don't want to play, you shouldn't be on the team right or don't want to compete and get out there. But like, you know, I wasn't I wasn't a complainer I kept my head down. I did the work. You know, I went out guys super hard in practice. And I think because of that attitude, again, it kept me in, get me in the league a long time.

Phil White  25:45

For sure. Well, we'll talk about some of your your more famous teammates and coaches in a minute. But those first few years in the league was the someone that you look to either as a direct mentor that you have access to like a Steve Kerr, or Shawn Lea, or any other product of Arizona and Lou Olsen's great program there, or maybe that someone you just observed from afar that really kind of, you know, either directly or indirectly helped you navigate, you know, some of those pitfalls and essentially stay in the league because obviously, to have success, you've got to have some degree of longevity as well.

Jud Buechler  26:23

Yeah, I would, I would probably point to Steve, most of the time. I mean, Steve, Steve was always, I mean, he was, you know, like a fifth year senior. I mean, he was a senior when I was a freshman. So it's funny, because when we were in college, I mean, we were teammates and close, but we weren't like close, close, because I'm four, you know, I'm way, way younger. So, so anyway, but, but he was a guy, like he hired his agent. And I reached out to him, and I needed an agent. And I went with his agent. And then like, halfway through his career, he changed agents. And I'm like, Well, what are you doing, if you're championing whatever he did? I was like, I'm following you. That's awesome. I'm not quite sure if you guys noticed, but he has, anything he touches turns to gold. So. So he's done, he's done a nice job. He's done, okay. So he's just, he was a mentor, for sure. If I had any, if I had was struggling or doing whatever, I could reach out to him. And, you know, and then when we we ended up playing together in Chicago for for four years, that's when, you know, our friendship really got super serious. And then he was incredible for me there because he really helped me navigate a lot of a lot of landmines that were going on there. And he helped me out with making some career decisions, you know, you get it, you know, along along the path of the career, you get to some forks in the road, you know, you're like, am I taking this? Am I going to the right, am I going to the left? You know, I had a chance to go to Europe and play and make more money, or should I go here and, you know, for for a non guaranteed taught me there was, you come to forks in the road where you need to be guided by, you know, by some people that that have, you know, had their head screwed on straight in, and he really helped me with a lot of those things.

Tim DiFrancesco  28:26

Yeah, that's awesome to have somebody that you can lean on. Yep.

Jud Buechler  28:30

Exactly.

Tim DiFrancesco  28:32

Um, before we get too far away from the Arizona chapter, I I've always been curious that the did was there overlap on the volleyball and the basketball season was there. I mean, because you played both, all four years. Right.

Jud Buechler  28:50

Well, so. So the the schools at that point in time at Arizona, it was it was, it was a complement. They still don't have a men's team there. It was kind of considered a club team. Right. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So there's not no there's no pac there at UCLA where I was gonna go I was getting recruited for volleyball and basketball and they're both NCAA, obviously division one, you know?

Tim DiFrancesco  29:16

Sure, sure. But not at Arizona.

Jud Buechler  29:20

Arizona, I'm not quite sure why that just wasn't enough support for it. And it's, they still don't have it so interesting. I really, I really went away in the I went away from the volleyball just I went all in on the basketball. And I played a little club out there because I my most fond memories, as I played counter murals volleyball out there, now that I love it. By the way, it was COVID. Club. It was nice to have had the gals out there too. And that was yeah, that was that was super fun. And but no, I did really I just committed totally, I've actually during my college years in Arizona, I played in a couple of ese P pro tournaments on the beach to man and read a lot. Yeah, I played in a couple of those with with with, I got asked to play in those that see I was still considered an amateur so I could take any money. I think my the guys that asked me to play like that, because they knew they would get the whole person. And I couldn't take any but so I just kind of stayed up with a volleyball. I mean, it was, it was a it was a pretty, you know, volleyball come super easy to me or dangerous. So I just went all in on the basketball so there wasn't really the answer your question go back again. There wasn't really an overlap, because the whole commitment was that and then if there was like, hey, the club teams playing, you know, bottled water was coming in town Do you want to play I got practice twice with them. And then I can just go out there and play

Tim DiFrancesco  31:03

was there something about the basketball side of it? Where there was like a challenge there that there wasn't on volleyball or that you just you said I just want to see what I can get out of this and you didn't really know whereas volleyball seemed more like a sure sure shot for you.

Jud Buechler  31:23

Yeah, well, you want it? Yeah, I just put so much time at the basketball like, like not twice as much like, you know, five times is like, like volleyball was almost like a hobby. Like just on the side time right? From a very you know, I didn't go to a lot of volleyball camps I didn't I wasn't playing volleyball was just played the beach with my dad and then I played a little bit I played started playing indoor in high school. And that's when I kind of took off with it, you know, for for fun. And it was a clubs for in high school too. It wasn't like a CI it wasn't a sanction thing. So it was just kind of like this thing over there that I loved to play. But I put so much time and you know, just blood, sweat and tears with going to these camps in this on this basketball. Like I just have to see how this is gonna play out. And if it doesn't play out, then I knew I had something to fall fall back on with with the volleyball that I can compete at a high level with the volleyball. Yeah,

Tim DiFrancesco  32:28

no, that makes sense. Really cool.

Phil White  32:30

So just real quick, one more question about your Arizona days before we go return to your time in the NBA. What did the Olsen's and you mentioned lute Olson, his wife as well, what what did the Olson's teach you about how to be a man in this world? And that they helped you grow as a person above and beyond what whatever Luke was able to teach you on the basketball court?

Jud Buechler  32:52

Yeah, I think just basic, basic values, you know, it's about being a good person. And, and being a good team. I mean, they, they made it a family situation, you know, I was kind of leaving, it was almost like, he was like this secondary, you know, mother and father to all of us, obviously, we have our mom and dads or whatever. But, you know, it was like, it was such a family and just hard work. You know, humility, you know, being, you know, gratitude, I mean, all those, all those things, that, you know, they kind of taught us about being just just a good person in this, you know, treating others that are you want to be treated like you're just basic stuff, but they made a point of it. I mean, it was important to them to like, you know, once we left their left the school and graduated, that you were a young man that had as bad as at solid values on how to, you know, live your life, basically. And they did a great job with that.

Phil White  34:04

Wow, yeah, that's an amazing I love hearing these stories of, you know, folks like yourself that have learned at the seat of these people who are obviously very accomplished as professionals in this case, yes, as a coach and his wife, but yeah, just the personal interaction and the development of human beings outside of whatever happens in sports is pretty fascinating.

Jud Buechler  34:26

Yeah, it's huge, right? I mean, it's huge. You know, you want to, you want to you want to go into college, you go in there, you know, whatever. 18 and leave it what 1718 And you leave four years later, and you're really a young man and you need to be ready for whatever's out there. You got to not only that's what's that's what's so great about coaching, the great ones prepare you for life. Not just making a better athlete or a better shooter or a better dribbler or whatever. Right, but the good ones prepare you for every thing that you're gonna face in your life. Forget forget sports, you know, all the pitfalls that right we all run into, you know,

Tim DiFrancesco  35:08

speaking of coaching was there, you know, you kind of came in with, I guess the nets right. Seattle drafted you and then you didn't spend time in Seattle immediately to the NATs right and then went straight to the nets. Yep, yep. And then a bit with the Spurs and then kind of you know, Golden State after that before the bowls time, where there are coaches that that early sort of chapter of the NBA time for you that that really helped you to kind of set the tone for what became a really successful time in the league. Well,

Jud Buechler  35:47

I My my, my first year was Bill Fitch. Yeah, just Bill stitch which I enjoyed him a lot. My first year and then I then I had Larry Brown, and actually his assistant with a guy named Greg Popovich in San Antonio. So I got yeah.

36:10

Cool Greg.

Jud Buechler  36:11

If you guys have heard of him, but he both those guys have pretty much Hall of Famers. But I wasn't there very long. I had Don Nelson in Golden State

Tim DiFrancesco  36:23

can you give us a Nelly Can you give us a quick Nelly sad story that's the that's you know, say for for the airwaves.

Jud Buechler  36:30

i There's nothing saying was incredible. We had we had he and I kind of had a tricky relationship. I respected him I think he wanted more of me as a player. And so we to be honest with you, Nellie and I, that was probably my first coach that I've ever run into that we he and I had a hard really hard relationship. I think he he he brought me in there and felt like I should have been better than I was and he was hard on me. He was super hard on me and it but but with that I'm grateful because you know I think I grew from that you know I never really had a coach that was that that aren't on me before and then then basically that's that's kind of where I got to got to the fork in the road after Golden State I was either gonna go to Europe or go go play for the Chicago Bulls and you know, want to make good contract and the whole thing and kind of roll the dice and that's that, you know, that's one of those big big forks you know, because if I go to Europe we're probably not talking on the phones right now. But

Phil White  37:52

I don't think we would

Jud Buechler  37:55

but anyway, you know, who knows what would have happened but that that changed that changed my career changed my life that right it says and basically you know see Steve was the one that that pushed me on that he was there he had been there he thought they was really Willie value the type of player i was because they were super into the triangle offense and turf you know you have to you have to be fundamentally sound you had to do the right pivots and all this stuff and you had to be you had to you had to make leaps in that offense you couldn't you had to have a brain on your shoulders and you had to be able to read situations this options taken away this option so I go here you know, you couldn't you had to you had to be have a basketball IQ and that's what I did and I wasn't I was never a great one on one basketball player so the triangle allowed me to play in this system where I didn't really have to ever I would get shots out of the system it wasn't just like isolation ball where like when I was in Golden State with was with Coach Nelson with Nelly he was really developing small ball in isolation ball like Miss mismatches and I will get put in a situation where he was like putting me in and I could that wasn't my game. I wasn't a great one on one player, you know. And so I got to Chicago and and that changed everything for me because of that offense in that style. Now

Phil White  39:35

that's great. So am I right in thinking that your first year was Michaels during Michaels hiatus for baseball?

Jud Buechler  39:44

Yes. Yeah.

Phil White  39:46

So what can you give us a little compare and contrast like to just tell us the story of your first year so you know, Steve kind of guide you towards? Look man, the only league that matters is the league right? It's See the code it earlier the league? And then, you know, I think you'd be a good fit here. And here's why. You know, maybe here's what I told the coaching staff about you. So kind of walk us through, you know, the first few days in Chicago and just tell us a little bit about what that first year was like, while Michael was we're still playing baseball.

Jud Buechler  40:19

Yeah, well, so we could basically I mean, I hope you guys are ready. I could talk through dinner, right? Yeah,

Phil White  40:32

I'm in a very comfy chair. Go ahead.

Jud Buechler  40:36

No, so So anyway, I I thought my start there was was really interesting. So I decided to go there. Steve says they're gonna love you. I ended up signing there. And I had to go to a pre camp, not the main training camp. I had to go to a pre camp was 18. Guys. And they were going to take two of the 18 guys of those 18 to the main camp. So

Tim DiFrancesco  41:04

this was part of the site. This was part of your your proposed deal, or that was what the deal was, like, how does because that kind of thing doesn't really happen that way anymore, does it?

Jud Buechler  41:14

No, no. So basically, I signed, right. Wow. The NBA NBA deal. Yeah, go well, we want you to go to a mini camp. Wow. Before the big camp, so there were 18 guys there and they told us they're taking two. Oh, so yeah, I mean, so you know, it's not all just Were you surprised at that moment, or you kind of knew, Okay, this was probably well, I just, I didn't know I'm like, I'm just gonna go. Wow, you fall back on competing. And so this so anyway, I, I, you know, I got there and then the legend of Tex winter. I don't know if you guys know that name, but he's kind of the trust triangle. He was all he was an old school coach, and he was all about fundamentals. And immediately I was like, Okay, this guy is my guy. And I think he really likes me because I can like actually pivot and no one else can. So anyway, he, you know, I, I, we had like, a four day mini camp and at the end there, like, I think the guy kid's name was from Illinois, Bardo. And his name is Steve Bartow, maybe, or this kid and he's like, you know, Bush learned Vardo you guys, you know, you guys are in everyone else. You guys guys can go home.

Tim DiFrancesco  42:37

Oh my guys.

Jud Buechler  42:40

So yeah, so so that was crazy. And then, you know, I went through training camp with them and Michael's not there. And I go through training camp and I have some decent preseason games. They give me some minutes and everything and then they get to the end. And you know, Jerry Krause, delete Jerry Krause. pulled me in and said, you know, here's the deal. We, we love you. But two things have to happen. We have to put you on we don't have a spot for you right now. We can put you in we can release you. Or you could go on, you know, on the injured reserve lifts, you know, with the quote unquote wings back spasm. Right. Do you remember those days? Yeah, no, of course, I didn't have backstabbers. But right. So they put and I was smart enough to realize, listen, every single NBA team is cutting making cuts right now. Like, it's not like teams have available. So I saw I'm like, No, I'll stay. I'll stay and wait my chance. And like one of my very best friends to this day, a guy named Larry Christo. viac, about two weeks into the season. It knee went south. And his knee started bothering me was just blowing up. He was kind of at the end of his career. And that's, it's so funny, because he's one of my best friends and lives, like four miles for me right now. But he, he ended up he ended up life's weird he ends up going on the IR and I get my chance. And that was it. That was it. That I mean, I was out. I never I don't think I went back on IR for the next four years ever, but talk

Tim DiFrancesco  44:26

about the preparation and the you know, the being ready and the decision as you said, the decisions you had to make to be able to be up for that moment to happen. Yeah, no, is

Jud Buechler  44:41

it was a time it was a ton of, you know, staying afterwards. You know, first first one and last one to leave. I mean, that's that was my motto. Especially when Michael came back because I wanted him to feel like I wasn't taking things for granted. And I was like I'm going to be Eat into the gym every single day, and I'll stay longer and him you know, whatever, because I was trying to earn my earn my key but no, just, you know the extra shots yet keeping yourself in shape. Just just reading because, you know, you get to get these moments to tell if you're not a superstar, you get these moments where like they like call on you and you're in and you need to perform, you need to play well, you know, and you don't think of it like that. But that's really what it is. Right? Like, you wait your chance and you get your chance, and you need to make the most of it. So it was just all the extra shots, all the extra spreads, just staying relatively sane, mentally ready, understanding the offense, you know, knowing the game plan and just being totally, you know, totally, totally locked in on on on doing positive things out on the court.

Phil White  45:55

So let's so yeah, so tell us a little bit. So obviously, you know, that season goes through, you're now not having to go through this kind of trial by fire selection, if you think you've already got a spot process, which must have been kind of strange, or at least, you know, to the modern player in today's game, as TD alluded to. Can you talk to us a little bit about the postseason, that particular year?

Jud Buechler  46:20

Yeah, so we had you know, it was interesting because the baseball, you know, we got all the way through that season. And we were having a decent a decent year, we were we were a playoff game. Right. But we weren't right. And, and that first year, you know, we all of a sudden the baseball you know, here's falling sports, right? They're on strike or whatever, you know, then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I show up to the places called the Berto centers, the old practice facility and I walk in and I immediately can feel the there's something going on. It is a it's like it just the density of I don't even know how to explain it like intensity. I mean, I just walked in the back door by the weight room. And I walked into the locker room and one of my favorite teammates were on Harper's there. And he's you know, he's getting changed in his locker locker and I turned to harp and I, I see hard, what's going on? And he looks up at me and gives me this look, and I'll never forget it. I'll never forget this line. He says to me, the man is here. And I I was like, the man is here. I mean, I literally did. I just let it go. Right. So I go in my locker, put my gear on. I've walked into training room to get taped. And there Michael getting tape for practicing his gear. And that was that was intense. So, you know, and you know for a lot of us besides besides a few guys that we're no one has ever played with them. Because the you know, the early championships you know, in the early 90s And then you know guys, there was a lot of guys on the team new players Randy Brown. Myself, Steve Kerr Bill Weddington Tony Kook COVID If you go down the list of guys that had never played with him and always been on opposing teams and even intimidating dudes you know and so it was it was we all we went out in practice and he didn't he did you warmed up with us and did a few things but the very first practice that year at the end, Phil split up the teams and you know he had Scotty on one side was you know team and Michael on the other and I happen to be on on Michael's team and and we came down on the wing, you know, and he flew to me on the wing and I pulled up and I hit I hit the shot shot I made the shot and ran back and he stuck his hand out when we gave him I gave him a five and I tell people this all the time I almost just ran out of gym and just just just just retired

Phil White  49:26

you're you're like George George Costanza ending on a high note in that one Seinfeld episode. One good point everyone loves and you just leave

Jud Buechler  49:37

like throw me the ball. I made the shot. He gave me a high five I mean, I'm out of here. Right You're the greatest player ever. Right so anyway in the get along the moving along is that we ended up playing. We end up going playoffs. We lost that year to win Orlando team. That was really good. You know, Penny Hardaway? Yeah. Nick Anderson. And they've been together. Right. And we were trying to Michael came back with like, 14 games 11 games, games, you know, he wasn't a basketball shape yet plays. And, and so I really believe that that season because of how it ended I don't know if you guys remember but we lost and Nick Anderson stole the ball for sure. And in that, that sealed, that that clinched it for them to be this in the series, and we end up losing and season was over. But I really believe that that series, maybe even that play fuel this fire under our team and under him. Yeah, you know, because that was the next year, we come back, they add Dennis Rodman to the mix. And that was the 72 and 10 year where we broke the record and and had had the greatest rap. You know, we were just we were, you know, that was before the war even that we were 40 Ford three at one point. I mean, it was insane. We were just we were crushing everybody crushing people. I mean, it wasn't even stable. It was so much fun. Like you'd go on the road. It wouldn't even matter. We've been people by 20 on the road. We've been so so that next year, we move 72. And can we won the championship? And then the following year, you know, we wanted again, that we wanted to get went three years in a row. So but I believe because of that the way that first year ended, when Michael came back really fueled him and the rest of us to go, we're not gonna let this happen again. Yeah, that's, that's what he's talking about now.

Phil White  51:44

You know, yeah. So what is that? His his results and of this is never happening to me personally, again. And this is never happening to our team again. And while I'm playing, the only result is we are going to win the championship, whatever it takes, how does that manifest itself day to day with him in practice? And then what did you observe in terms of your role in all of that, and in how he came back and his result that following offseason?

Jud Buechler  52:14

Yeah, well, maybe I should take a step back. And I, these are all my opinions. I don't know exactly what Michael was thinking. I just know him from what I know of him. And he's, you know, he's, he's, he's a super competitive monster. I've never met anyone ever. I've been with a lot of competitive people. I mean, he's one of those guys that whatever you're doing, there has to be a winner and a loser. You know, and I need any. Right. And he's just that, that competitive. And so I just don't realize, I think he, I think, you know, I think I'm sure that motivated him, because he always use little things to motivate him. I don't know. But that's just that's just my personal beliefs. But, you know, we came back and that training camp was super intense. I mean, he, he was very focused on not only getting himself ready, but getting the rest of us like he, he really, he challenged all of us, because he needed to know that if we got into the finals, and you got into the thick of it, who we could trust. And, and so a lot of us had never been to the finals, right, because it was a whole new team. Right. And so it wasn't, I don't think the only person that was left from the first three, I think I think was Scotty. So he obviously had the trust in Scotty but he needed to trust the rest of us. And so he the practices were insane, insanely intense, highly, highly competitive. I always felt like our practices were tougher than the game. Especially that that year so my, my whole my whole thing was that I was a role player. I was going to come off the bench and when I got in there, I was going to you know, bring really good energy at that point. I kind of hung my hat on. I was a good defender. Yeah, I was I was you know, I was six seven. I've got long arms i i Could guard you know, it's kind of uh, you know, Steve Kerr says I was made like, you know, 100 million dollars now because I can guard everybody and I can make

Tim DiFrancesco  54:40

three maybe three a day guy.

Jud Buechler  54:42

I think he's just saying that to you know, make me feel good because I did. But anyways, you know, I could guard different guys. And I would come in and I knew how to do the triangle and then if you left me open, I was a capable shooter and I developed a decent. I became I started stretch my range over the summer each summer going, Okay? I'm not having any success in there with the velociraptors in the key, okay, maybe they're longer throwing up in there. So I need to develop something else. So I developed a three point shot. And so they left me open, I could knock it down in a decent, decent percentage, but I don't know, you just kind of fold and roll. And I think that was one of the most special things about those teams in Chicago, is everyone still didn't even have to tell us. I mean, everyone's role was so defined. And it was like, This is my job. This is my you know, Michael has the big job, right? Scotty has a huge job, you know, and you go down and like, you just knew what your role was. I mean, Michael was asking myself to score 25 points a game that's not happening, but he needed me to come in and play defense and play smart and knock down an open shot. You know, I did that. He's like, you're doing your role. That's what you're, that's what your role is. And so the roles were so well defined, he was just a machine, like everyone knew when they were going in, and it would change a little bit on that jump, you know, who the matchup is or whatever, as you know, this guy's in the second unit, that's your matchup, but like, you kind of knew when you were going in, you know, what you need to do. And so everyone was just so in tune and in sync on what, what it took for our team to be successful that it was just a beautiful thing. And, you know, I you know, you look back, it's, you know, we don't obviously, we've got three guys on that team for now that were Hall of Famers. Right, Tony cuckolds, just went in. Sure. Dennis Dennis, Scottie and Michael Moore for Hall of Famers, Phil's in the Hall of Fame. Speakers going to be in the Hall of Fame for his every year more coach, but he also did win, you know, six NBA championships and play. I mean, so Oh, by the way, there? Yeah, it was a very, it was a very, I mean, we were loaded. I mean, we had the best six man and Tony to coach. We had the best, the best player in the world. We had a top five player in the world. And we had like the best defender rebounder in the world. I mean, we were we were loaded. So that's why we want but yeah, that mean, that was that was that was, that was a special time in my life. Because we, you know, I went to Chicago and I left with three championships in two beautiful daughters. So in those years in Chicago, we're, you know, we're four of the best years of my life for sure. And that was that was incredible. But

Phil White  57:48

yeah, how did you handle? So I was lucky enough to interview Nick gal who Tim's good friends at as well as the strength and conditioning coach that in New Zealand. And obviously, your blacks have the highest win percentage of any national team in the last 150 years in any sport. And so a question I asked you now, how did you as a team, handle having a target on your back every single time you went out there in a bull's uniform, particularly after Michael came back? Because everyone's bringing their best stuff against the balls, right?

Jud Buechler  58:25

No, I think we, I think, I mean, I felt like we thrived off of it. I don't know, it was, you know, it could be, you know, back then Cleveland was, you know, not we're talking pre pre raw, right? So, it could be Cleveland, or, you know, whatever we went, it was a Tuesday night, January 16. The place was packed. It was a show, right? And so we were always going to get the the opponent's best, but we knew over a 40 minute game, they would wear down writing every single game that was so big when the bulls came to town, right? And so that the balls and then the energy in the building, and they'd come out and maybe they would be up to two arms or something, you know, and it's just like, a simple harder time before we walk you down. Right. You know, so I never got to ask you a question. I don't remember ever feeling like, Oh, my God, we have a target. I think I mean, that was we just I think we like relish the moment. You know, it wasn't. There wasn't any anxiety about that. I guess what I'm trying to say it wasn't like, oh my god, everything's coming after. So we are the best team. We know the best team and they will come you know, we're, we're being hunted. But we're hoping now. Like, we had that much. That much swagger that much confidence and not not cocky, but just that much confidence and who we were as a team, you know,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:00:06

was there a team that you look back or a series in a play in a playoff in any of those three playoff runs? Where you look back and or you and your teammates have, you know, even talked about this and did at the time anyways, that, then that that one is a feather in our cap, because they they actually did push us that was, you know, they took the best out of the best shot at us.

Jud Buechler  1:00:31

Yeah, well, I would say it's easy. The thing that the team that jumps out is Utah, the Utah Jazz had, we played them, you know, in the finals, two years. And they had an incredible team. I mean, they had, you know, two Hall of Famers John Stockton, Karl Malone. They had really good pieces around them, that that place is one of the most difficult places to play. Gentlemen, do you know that? You're wrong, right? I mean, you go to soldier trying to win a game in there. It's hard. It's a hard place to win a game. And so, you know, they actually, one of the years, they actually had a better record, they had the home credit at home court again, that better recommendation. They that was their window to win a championship and unfortunately, Michael was in that window. And so it wasn't going to happen. But we yeah, we really, we had some really tough ones again, and in the finals, obviously was against them really, where we felt like wow, like, you know, that that that was not that we were lucky to get through that. But that's that's No, your team. I know. Right. And we played Miami a bunch you know, that was Pat Riley and Lorenzo morning and dashboard, Timmy Hardaway and a bunch of other good players down there. So that that became a little bit of our rival you know, and they pushed us a little bit to the problem was that we all love to go down to Miami to get out of Chicago because it was that we were like, Oh, this is so wow, this is nice, warm. It's easy to get warmed up, right. Michaels out playing like 36 holes at all. Oh, that was different time. But there were teams. I mean, we we were dominant. But there was some you know, Seattle the first year we played the Seattle SuperSonics turf, Gary Payton, Nate McMillan. debtless shrimps about a kid named Shawn camp. I mean, those really good team. Right? You know, George Karl was the coach. He's well, phenomenal coach. I mean, you you get to that point. And final one. And it's, it's those those those are the two best seats. Not sure why. That's why

Tim DiFrancesco  1:03:10

I have to go back and I want to, you know, take have you take. I'm interested when you took that path in the practice the first practice MJ passes ahead. Are you a guy? Are you a guy where at that moment, you're just so locked in? You know, I don't even know what's happening around me. I catch the ball, I shoot the ball, I make the ball? Or are you thinking about what's about to happen? Are you thinking this through at that moment?

Jud Buechler  1:03:37

Before you drill the shot, by the way? Yeah, I think one of the best things that happened to me is when I got to Chicago, and Phil's hole in the moment, Zen stuff I was just playing. Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about Yeah, you know, it didn't really dawn on me until we stuck out that gigantic myth of a, you know, that is twice the size of everybody else's. But I was just, you know, you're just what's the it's the first the first practices, the first games, you know, we all were standing around kind of watching him. We had a film session where, you know, Phil was like, Hey, listen, there's no more that we're watching Michael, you know, get comfortable play, you know, because, you know, you're, you know, we'd all been on opposing teams and and we're, you know, an all a guy, you know, and so it took a little while to get comfortable but know that that first that first practice, you know, you're just you're just playing and just walking in the moment.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:04:46

Probably, to be you know, successful next to him. You have to have that ability. Otherwise, you're you're you're just sort of, you know, watching.

Jud Buechler  1:04:56

Yeah, you have to you just you just kind of see Got everything else off and just kind of totally put yourself into the game and be the whole mindfulness thing. And yes, you know, being, being mindful, being in the moment, not worried about what happened in the past, not, you can't control the future, just being in the moment. And that was something that Phil really hit home in Chicago. And that really resonated with me. Because, and I, when I was started coaching and coaching my daughter and volleyball I, that was my main message, you know, because, you know, it's a game of mistakes. And if you're gonna let that mistake that turnover, ruin the next five plays for you, you're not going to be very successful, you know. So, you know, short, short term memory, pretty much in every sport is critical. Because, you know, you can't get caught up in that or worried about what's happening next, you know, just, just being mindful in the moment was huge.

Phil White  1:06:03

No, I love that. There's obviously a lot of people like Tim and I have rewatched, the last dance over and over, and we love it. And there's a lot of people that love it. But there are also those, and even as a few books coming out now, and we're not trying to get controversial with you, or try to put words in anyone's mouth. Because, as you said, before, you know, this is just your perspective. But one of my favorite bits is when Michael there's is almost tearing up and saying, Look, everyone says, oh, Jordan's this asshole, you know, just try to dominate everybody. But leadership comes at a cost and winning comes at a cost. And then he said, like timeout, like, cut the camera in timeout. And that, to me was really moving because it showed that he cared about the guys around him, the coaches yourself as a player, the other teammates, but he also was aware of how it you know, he's self aware enough to know how he was, is deceived. And you know how it's run into Scotty Burrell and in pushing Scotty and, you know, everything else might be perceived through this documentary. So again, without trying to put words in your mouth and not try and ask this question. In a controversial way, but is there a misconception about how Michael Jordan was and and the effect that that had on people? And what just what was your take about the intensity, he brought the practice and the effect that that had on the group?

Jud Buechler  1:07:31

Well, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff, obviously, you know, with with Scotties there's been some excerpts from Scott his book, and the last dance was amazing. And it was an absolute walk down memory lane for me, we, because of how things ended in Chicago, and I'll get back to your question, you know, we we haven't had one. We've never been been together. The team. That was three championships. There's never been a Chicago Bulls night. We've never been invited back. And 20 plus years. 20 plus years. You know, those teams were iconic teams and brought the city so much love and fun and memories, and we've we've never had a reunion. Well, it's the other night, and I'll go even a little deeper. The other night, they had a yacht team Yoky Nolan, nice. Where to help you as a player who and I have I'm not disrespecting anyone you know, and he was not all defensive player and they did it because kids the Knicks were playing but I watched on TV because I watched the bulls a lot and his whole team that team that that lost I think in the Eastern Conference Finals they were all there

Tim DiFrancesco  1:09:03

in a boozer was there everybody was there you're right

Jud Buechler  1:09:06

everybody's there but I love Lou all things I love all those guys. I know Keith bogans is one of my good friends. He was there a chance to coach with him has nothing to do with those guys. I was there deserving but it made me sad. Yeah, because we want to reach we want to be champion routes and conference finals. We had the greatest record ever and and we won three championships and we've never they've never done one thing and I love those people there I mean it changed my life all those people there but because of how it ended in particularly with Michael you know we have leaving and how it all ended it ended kind of ugly and they just didn't bring us all back and they told you know that's why it was called The Last Dance like before the scene You sit there like, This is it for you guys? And you're like, What? No, no, regardless of what happens, you don't say anything. I mean, think about that. Are you kidding me? Would they ever have done that in, in New England with me and it's over? No chance, but because of how it ended there such bad feelings and bad blood, it, it makes me sad. Because it shouldn't be like that, like we should all be together our team in that box celebrating whoever, you know, and I'm not saying your kids, you totally deserve it. I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just pointing out that. It just made me sad to see that they they brought that whole team back and they don't bring us back. You know, for sure. Sorry. I want to talk side note there. So anyway, I'm glad Michael is a phenomenal leader. Incredible leader. He he led by example, about his I mean, you're talking about the guy that practiced. I mean, he didn't miss practices. There was no when they call TT now and everyone's you know, missing everything. Load. No load management. Yep. Yeah, there's no, there's no load management guy to guide practice. You had to force him to sit out of practice him and Scotty, he wanted to practice Dave loves to play, they love to compete. I mean, there were practices when they those we'd have a back to back and maybe back to facility the next day. And Phil would take like the top eight up, and the rest of us would be down, you know, playing for unforeseen ready, right? So you ready for opportunity? And those guys would come down and like sub me out? I'd be like, Are you kidding me? Right? No, you played like 30 minutes. So I mean, my point is that they, their competitors, they love to practice. So Michael was incredibly intense and intense individual reset. He's competitive. He led by example. He led by his efforts, and he led by fear. But you didn't want him on your bad side. You did not want to let him down. And so there's a price with that. Right? Because if people ask you that, and a lot of people are like, Oh, that guy was an asshole. Yeah. Oh, sorry. But you know, whatever he was, right. It was a turd. But you go well, that was his style. And by the way, we want I want no problem at all right? Because because we were you know, if you act like that, and you don't win, or whatever, it may not go over as well. But who's arguably, right. I mean, he changed all of our lives. And he was just an incredible, incredible leader. Was it always fun? No. Was it easy? No. Was it worth it? Absolutely. That's the price. You know,

Phil White  1:13:05

I love that. So going back to what you said about, you didn't just use a phrase that was very self deprecating. And you're way too humble. I think with this, that you everyone kind of fell into their ball. And then you also said you knew your role. But to me, you not only knew your role, and I don't think any of you fell into it. But you were determined to to not let each other down, as you just said to let Michael down and all that fell down. Obviously to not let Steve down as he was interim instrumental there. But to me, Steve Carell, and before him, John Paxson were like the kings of not just knowing their role, but then being 100% in both feet at all times, in excelling in that role, and maybe even you know, growing into an outsize part of the team when called upon. And obviously, we know the results of that in terms of packs. And Steve and those kind of series, 20 clenching shots that they made. Was that another thing you took from Steve Kerr and maybe from John before that, but I'm not going to just know my role, but I'm going to be literally the best guy in the league, or certainly the best on this team at understanding what's expected of me, but then going above and beyond to seize that and excel in that position.

Jud Buechler  1:14:18

Yeah, no, 100 100% 100 Exactly what you said it was, like, be very best at whatever that role is. You know, I mean, and got You're right. I mean, I love PACs. I got to play with them. One year, he was an assistant coach. And he was, you know, a total mentor for me as well, because I watched what he did, you know, and how he was just high high IQ, cost his nails, defensively, knocked down open shots, makes the right play can be trusted. And I think Steve, you know, fell into that role and did an incredibly, incredibly well and And, and then you know, on a lesser note, I tried to emulate those guys, and whatever my role was, is to do that. So it's just it's be the be the best in your role be the star in that role and that other franchises would see that and go, Wow, this, this guy can play this role and do it. And he's incredible at it. You know, I mean, it's not easy to sit over there for 2530 minutes and get in the game and knock down at the pointer. I don't care how young you are. That's, that's it's not it's not easy. It's it's that's, that's a that's a talent has a talent out there. I mean, you're not like running up and down, you're sitting over there sitting over. And by the way, with the law, you said, it's inevitable that ball is going to find you and you're going to be open. Right? It's not just because what's going to happen? I mean, that's just how the basketball got over there. Don't play in the first half. You know, don't play in the third, get the start in the field starts in the fourth. And it's a close game, and you're open immediately. Right, make that shot after sitting there for like hours. You know, besides besides halftime? Urine, I mean, like you're not you're not like, sure, you know, for role players, you know, those shots are huge shots, we're not volume shooters, we're not going to take 15 shots in game, we're not going to take that to the free throw line. 10 times in a game, to all those shots, the weight of those shots are huge. Because I may only get one, I only make it two. And by the way, that's gonna affect my percentage, because I'm not getting 20 of them again, yeah, you know what I mean? So, you this one, you know, you miss you know, all of a sudden you go once for three years or whatever, it's so those it's, it's i i did it and I have great respect are like, six men seven, eight, you know, you know, screen guys that guys on the list that come in? Because it's not easy.

Phil White  1:17:12

Yeah, mentally, how did you stay ready? Are you ready? So when your number was called, you were ready, just prepared. And you just go out there and, and also lock in defensively? Right, maybe you're coming in your garden? So the second best player on the other teams first unit in that fourth quarter?

Jud Buechler  1:17:28

Yeah, I think well, defensively was easy. You know, that you're just the studies. You're studying film. Right? And they are giving you you know, these guys, you're watching them play you know, their strengths, you know, their weaknesses, you know which way you want to force them are they shoot, you know, they like to go left, right? You know, all that. But, but offensively you you just, I think you just have to trust the work. You know, you just have to trust it. I'm going to, I'm going to knock it down, or I'm going to play well, because I put in a lot of work. And that gave me confidence. I trusted the work that I did. You know, and you have to have that. Because if you if you don't trust the work, you don't feel like you. I felt like I deserved to have success out here. I've worked harder than anybody here. You know, it's kind of that mindset of like, you know, positivity I'm going to be it doesn't always work. Obviously you miss shots and you make mistakes, but but you just have to trust that you put the work in and that you're going to be successful.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:18:35

Yeah, sure. The prep the preparation.

Phil White  1:18:38

Yeah. Everybody always obviously, there's a lot you could probably say about what you learned from Phil Jackson, but you know, you have the architect of the triangle offense there with you as well. You had some of these great, longtime assistant coaches, what did you learn from either like a text winner or any of the other assistant coaches that were involved in the team during that three beat?

Jud Buechler  1:19:01

Well, Tex Tex was really the guy. I mean, he still basically when it was time to work on our offense, still handled the whistle. Basically the tax attendant was he ran the show and he he was so great because he was older and grumpy and in all about the details. It was like the little tiny details of everything like where do you pass it to someone were to hit him in the chest they hit him down low like he's watching all and and it was a factor because it a tight game and finally gets down in you need to make that pass. It's a lot easier as a shooter to catch it, you know, TV right right in the shooting pocket rather than grab it from your ankle. It was the Jeep style of the game, how hard you were cutting where Your passes were the Christmas. I mean, he, that's why I had so much success there because that's, that's what I was taught Arizona. That's what I was taught in high school, like the fundamentals of basketball, you know, in Texas, like, you know, he's on, he's on Michael and Scotty about their passing on, you know where that bought me. He didn't. He was on every but, you know, we and that's what you loved about him, you know, but I think just I would say it was really him offensively and it was the attention to detail of littlest things that you know, were the offense to me he had it down the spacing of the offense had to be perfect. It's you know, spacing is huge. It's huge right now in the NBA, right the spaces the court ugali shooters. You know, there's not a lot of senators any more of them. What she means is Liam in the game has obviously evolved into what it is, but I think attention to detail and just being a perfectionist with it, but it has to be crisp, it has to be sharp, the cuts had to be gained speed. This was, you know, every shoot around every practice, kind of like just five on Oh, dummy offense, they would call with no defense, like you had to make, the way you cut the way you pivot. Like everything had to be just perfect, in all point and on time with him.

Phil White  1:21:30

It sounds like then he was almost like a master cobbler like the art of shoe building or a Master boatbuilder. I just read. Yeah, I just read reason I say that, particularly the boat builder part is I just reread the brilliant book, The Boys in the Boat, by Daniel James Brown and Giorgio pokok, my fellow Englishman, you know, who was not just he was almost a de facto assistant coach and mentor to the kids as well. But Phil built the shells, the rowing shells, so the top 25 Maybe the top 50 rowing programs in the country, the best boat builder in the world, it sounds like Texas, Texas, almost dedicated to being that, you know, that master boat builder, but to the craft of almost an offensive coordinator role. It seems like

Jud Buechler  1:22:18

no, you use the word master. That's what he was. He was the master of the triangle offense, and how it should look and how it should go. What reads if they're playing you this way? I mean, he would. It was incredible. I mean, in went in film sessions he was he was hilarious, right? Because he was a very brash guy. You know, there was there was there wasn't a lot. There was no as you get older, there's less filter. Right? Right. Right. He didn't he didn't he didn't have a filter. He just didn't eat. See, it didn't care who it was. It would just blow him up on you know, whatever. But it had to be right. I mean, there's stories, it didn't happen to us. But in the early 90s, I heard the first three championships, they beat Portland, right? I think they play Portland, right? So when the championships there in the locker room, doing, you know, the champagne celebration and taxes over there talking about, you know, something about the turnovers they had. We were talking champagne bottles, right? Okay, you can let that go. That's, that's how that's how he was. He was just, it was his wife. And he was he was a master craftsman. That's what he was.

Phil White  1:23:37

Now a lot of fun. So it shows a lot of humility on Coach Jackson, part two that he was willing to hand him the keys in that way.

Jud Buechler  1:23:46

Yeah, no, I, I think Phil. Phil built a staff and gave everybody you know, I joined that's where I met Matt, Matt TD but you know, I when I got into coaching with the Lakers, but I mean, Phil, Phil, is he looking back because I wasn't really paying attention to the coaching side of it back then. But like, he really let everybody have a voice, which I think is really important for a staff, you know, I you know, you put put a staff together there's a reason you're getting these guys and it's important for everyone to have a voice that you know, to be coaching to be heard. And, and Phil was was good with that. We would you know, cash would go on and on and on and on. So we'd have to cut off a couple times. But but but he let you know, all of our coaches Jimmy Clemens and the rest you know, the late Frank Hamblin, like they all did, scouts and they all have you know, it wasn't all Phil's released at that point. You know, I was in LA but he you know, he His ego was wasn't was in check. You know, he let everybody do their part. are just like our team. The coaching staff has rules to write them to do their roles.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:25:08

And you tell us a little bit, John about Ron Harper, one of your favorite teammates, I have a term that I use with my team here at TD athletes edge in terms of what it means to be an A plus teammate. You know, I have a feeling that a lot of your teammates would point to you if if you know we said here's the mic, tell us who your your A plus teammate was? Who who is that? For you? It could be it could be a any stop in the in the journey for you. It doesn't have to be bowls. Well,

Jud Buechler  1:25:43

I had a lot of great teammates, for sure. I mean, you know, we're talking bowls, I mean, obviously, Steve, I had you know, Luc Longley, Tony, Randy Brown, you know, Scotty was one of my favorite teammates that I ever had. I mean, he was, you know, super supportive. You know, I had to practice against him every single day. So we would add it, but he was respectful of me. I think he appreciated my effort. He knew he's gonna have to work, you know, he's gonna, you know, have we could just roll out there, you know, and just that wasn't his style anyway. But I you know, he was great. You know, early years. Kenny Hardaway, I had him in Golden State. I had, I had the great Chris Mullin in Golden State. Wow, those two guys were amazing. One of the all time great teammates that I've ever had is Grant Hill, I had a chance to play with Grant Hill, both in Detroit and in Orlando, at the end of my career, what

Tim DiFrancesco  1:26:57

what made grant stand out

Jud Buechler  1:27:00

just an incredible human being. I mean, you know, just just just a very thoughtful kind. Just an incredible human just from his intellect just the way he handled things super positive. You know, guys that could, you know, teammates that knew if you were down a little bit could pick you up, hey, I'm here, I got you. In let's let's go take extra shots or whatever, you know, whatever. In grant Guys, guys, like Grant had the ability to get your really easy shot. To get you back going, but those are just me, I played with so many I had so many sharp friendships along the way. But of those of those ones that just popped in my head, I'm forgetting a bunch. We're simply one of those guys just just and it all comes down to it. They're just high character. Right? High character people, right? You just want to be around high character, people in your life, surround yourself with that, and you're in good shape.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:28:09

enjoyable to be around. It's in our control. Right. And yeah, you know, it's it's just, I think sometimes people are looking for the secret that makes them successful. And that's one of the common denominators. What, what what was it like,

Jud Buechler  1:28:28

post voles?

Tim DiFrancesco  1:28:30

Was that chapter describe it. I'm curious. Yeah. So

Jud Buechler  1:28:35

I left there. I went to Detroit you know, I was I was probably at the peak of my career because I was feeling incredibly confident. I was a three time world champion and I had I had some really good individual years in Detroit, I had my best shooting year the very next year and hit like, you know, put us up like I had whenever I had like seven or eight shots under a minute to get us the lead like that year and I was coming off the bat man, I had a really good year. It was always there was no place to go from there. Right? I mean, you're at the pinnacle, you're on that team with those stars and winning championships. So everything else team wise was never going to live up to that. But sure, you know it. I went to Detroit I spent three years there and Detroit and had a good time and then I got traded to Phoenix and then traded to Orlando and that's where it kind of just all that's where I knew it was time so I you know I kind of bounced around and beginning to find my footing to find like my role like what kind of an NBA player and then I ended up Golden State for like three years Chicago for Detroit through Yeah, that was kind of the meat. Right? Yeah. Yeah, like that we're. And then at the end, as I'm getting older, I'm kind of bouncing around a little bit, you know, it's kind of a journey, man. But it was, it wasn't easy just because of we, you know, you have that type of success in one place, and the friendships that develop out of that, and all of that winning and then you go someplace else. And you're losing, and you don't have the same friendships. And it's just it's the culture is not there necessarily culture. Exactly. The culture is not even close to being the same. You're kind of driving home and practice going, Oh, my gosh, like, what am I? What these people don't even know what they're doing, you know?

Tim DiFrancesco  1:30:46

Amateur? Yeah.

Jud Buechler  1:30:50

Yeah, yeah. When did you

Tim DiFrancesco  1:30:51

know? You said you kind of got to Orlando and and you started to what? What was that? I mean, was that was that an easy drop of the hat for you? This? Is it. I know it?

Jud Buechler  1:31:04

Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't as hard for me as I think it is for, for a lot of other athletes. I got to the end to where I wasn't having the same success. I was having a harder time competing, and keeping up because I was older. And there's younger guys coming in the league. And then at the end of the day, TD I wasn't enjoying it. Yeah, I mean, I was I was basically, as long as I love practice practices were might latch by, right. And when I got to the point where like, I didn't, I wasn't loving practice. I wasn't excited to go, it's like turn into like this job. Like, I had to go I'm like, Okay, I'm not having success. I'm not happy. I think, you know, this has been a hell of a run for me. You know, I was 12 year I'm, I think it's time you know, and then and I have other interests, you know, so it wasn't like, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, like, what's my identity, which happens to a lot of guys, which is just kind of a bummer, but that's the way it is. But I had other things that I wanted to do I get back in and start playing volleyball again. Right, I'm really high level volleyball. And then I fell in love with some other, I turned into an avid surfer, I traveled all over in surfed and started playing tennis. I just started I had other things that I just wanted to do, you know,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:32:37

a little bit of full circle, because, you know, you describe, like, you know, before you even you know, get into high school and you're saying I tried everything, you know, and then I don't know if I have this right job and I've never, you know, you know, talked it through with you, but you kind of stayed away from the game itself in the league a little bit, you know, from a, you know, pulse on the, you know, ear to the tracks, kind of, you know, an active role right for for how long after the Orlando

Jud Buechler  1:33:07

stent? Like 15 years, right. Was that as I was done? Yeah. I didn't. I couldn't even watch it for a long time. Wow. I didn't want to watch it. I needed it was I had had enough of it. And I really stepped away from it. I live in San Diego TV, you know that. And there's no there's no basketball besides the Lakers. But they're up in LA, you know. So there's like, I moved back to my hometown where there's not even a protein here show. So it was easy to kind of escape it. I jumped into my daughter's sports. I coached volleyball, my daughter's teams for 1213 years. And then they both went off to college. And I thought okay, and then I had, that's when I had an opportunity after a long hiatus being and not just like being away, like, totally absent from Yeah. And I wasn't even watching much basketball. And that's where you and I came together because Luke was a friend. Then I thought, Wow, this, I kind of want to give this a shot, you know, and I had the time and I was in the ability to do it. And I was lucky enough that Moulin Rouge gave me a shot. And that's and that's where we, you know, got together and then I did it. But yeah, I did it for I did it for four years, two years in LA that I went to New York, the New York Knicks and that was kind of fun. Just you know, checking the box about being in New York, New York. So bad incredible cities, you know, just manners union. We were we were we were dead terrible. But but, you know, there's that managing garden is is a special place. Nothing like every single game that I had a chance to watch. tucked in there and walk up that ramp in Madison Square Garden was so awesome. I love I love that building the history. The last great arena. It's so that guy. Yeah. So even though we were losing almost all our games, it still was an honor to be there and in that building, and that was a thrill. And then now I'm just back in San Diego, taking care of my family and my dad and my sister and I'm in a good spot. But yeah, yeah, the was. It was a big gap, which was the Go ahead, sir. No, it was a big gap is you know, your question was, yeah, it was about 1314 Right here, right? Yeah. I wanted nothing.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:35:44

I didn't want to touch that. But yeah, by design.

Jud Buechler  1:35:47

It was just like, Okay, I think I've made like, you know, 1000 shots a day for the last like, 10 years. I don't, I don't want to do anymore. You know, so,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:36:00

I mean, I

Jud Buechler  1:36:01

so I got away from it. Alright,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:36:03

I think that's so you know, just the self awareness that that's what you needed at that moment. You know, you had poor you had poured everything into it. As you said, even very early on when there was a sort of fork in the road Do I go volleyball? Do I go basketball? It was when I put I put all this into basketball at that point. And, you know, that was just, you know, at the at the very tip of the iceberg for you. And so I think that's incredible. Did you find that the was the was the coaching experience for you what you expected?

Jud Buechler  1:36:37

Um, wow, that's a great question. I fortunately, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed being around the players. I need to get caught up to speed with the NBA game. Yeah. Because it it changed a lot. Yeah. From from when I played the defensive coverages the terminology. I mean, like that first year, you remember, I'm like, trying to keep up because I'm like, we didn't call it this, you know, 100 years. Like, we didn't call it we call it something else. Because there's like this whole new terminology and way to play defense and keeping the ball on one side. And I was like, Okay, I'm such a great, I'm a I'm a rookie again. I, I don't I don't know. I mean, I didn't need to learn all this stuff. And I enjoyed coaching. I enjoyed being around the guys because I like being a part of a team, you know. Yeah, the teams, the team, the coaching staffs a team, you know, all the great times we had together with, you know, your your team and us coming together to staff and I really enjoyed that. But I was horribly unsuccessful. That the first year, we went 26 games, right. The second year, we want 35. Yeah, not even close to playoffs. Right. Right. I go, I moved to New York, we went 17 games. Federal records, tie the worst record, the Knicks have ever had 117 The following year, we get to 20. And an NBA gets shut down and good for COVID. Right. 20 520-635-1720. So it was painful. I lost more games in four years. And I did almost in my entire career. I mean, that I mean, it was it was it was a lot of losing. And losing is hard. It's hard on everyone. It's hard on the head coach, you know, TD it trickles down to everybody. Everyone's everyone's under a microscope. Everyone's pointing fingers, why there's cells, everyone's getting off of me. It's not my fault. It's someone else's fault. I'm just looking in the mirror. That's all right. Right? In the mirror, but that, you know, that's not how it works. You know that better than anybody for sure. They just, it was a lot of losing. And so it was hard. It was really hard. And, and I'm happy to do of course i i have a bunch of new awesome people that I met the new staff, I mean, you and I got to know each I mean, you just go down the list, right? There's a ton of great people that I met that I call friends that I'm so stoked that they came into my life. So there's that positive of it and love being on a group but but the losing was was really hard. Hard.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:39:40

That is you know, I think I think that's one of the pieces that gets lost from a know even a very in tune, kind of outside perspective and somebody who's watching with a tight pulse on everything is you know, when you're taking those owls and It matters to everybody, right? I mean, nobody's gonna be there, you know, taking another L, but you got to get on that plane again, and you've got to go back to square one and try to figure out how to do it again tomorrow night and not have that outcome. And it's just, I think sometimes it's coming so fast and furious in, in that league and, you know, in the NBA life, that it's hard to turn that ship around in a in a small port sometimes, you know,

Jud Buechler  1:40:29

know, for sure, for sure. I mean, it's, you know, it, you need to have, yeah, you need so many things that factors in you know, this, you got to have the talent first, you got to have guys that can put the ball in the basket, you know, you know, it's hard, there's a lot, there's, there's a lot of things that you need to have. So, go the right way. And once it starts to slide and the losing starts, it's just, it's, it's not fun, it's not fun at all. Go ahead,

Phil White  1:41:07

I was just gonna say how do you try to help particularly younger players keep their head screwed on right and maintain a winning mindset, even if they're ELLs piling up, you know, in the last column? Yeah, so

Jud Buechler  1:41:21

you know, that you watch a lot of film with them. And I was, I was very specific to try and, you know, not not point out all the negative, you know, you want to point out a ton of positive, especially if the team's losing. And, you know, it's, it's, you know, we all, we all kind of get a sign players that we look after, and we work with, and it's a coach's job to mentor, those guys, even, you know, not if they're older players, but I have, I had some young guys that weren't playing and we're struggling, and then you, you know, you need to keep them up, keep them going mentor them along the way, you know, everything that I learned as a player I'm trying to share with them, I'm trying to do make Abul workouts, the fun, you know, it's important to have joy in what you're doing. You know, and if you're losing, and no one's happy, if you're losing, and if you're losing and you're not playing, then it's a double whammy, because you're not even being able to play so I just tried to keep them positive of the their workouts, make them fun, and give them instill them some confidence, any, any way I could. So, you know, just just to keep their heads on straight, because a lot of them come from, you know, programs that went all the time, you know, comes from a Duke or Kentucky these, you know, did, you know, said now they're losing, it's, it's hard on him. So there's a lot more to the coaching side than just kind of the x's and o's and working on your jump shot, right, you need to massage their mind, you got to make sure you're bringing them along, in maturing them along the way. And I think a lot of coaches miss out on that they focus just a lot on, hey, we're going out, you know, work on pick and roll, you're coming off the pick and roll 100 million times, well, maybe the kid needs, maybe you need to sit down with them and have lunch with them, and talk to them. That'll mean that mental side is You we all know now because it's such a major thing. It's always been a major thing, but now it's been brought to the forefront, you know, but you gotta you gotta keep them. Keep it positive, keep them feeling like they're on the right path. Keep their energy up, because losing is hard, especially in any professional sport, because the finger pointing and the rumblings and all the stuff that takes place while you're losing is not good.

Phil White  1:44:07

Yeah, it's a it's not a game of W's and L's in terms of just what's going on objectively on the scoreboard. But like you said, this is a game of a group of humans, you know, specialists, you know enrolls like TDs as strength and conditioning coach, their ATS PTS team, physicians, trainers, you know, all the support staff in the arena, you know, the chef's the folks doing the hydration stations, through the coaching staff and the players there's a group of people so I love that you kept it a people focused endeavor, even when you know, the objective or quality qualitative side of the game, maybe wasn't showing the results that everyone wanted.

Jud Buechler  1:44:51

Exactly, no, I mean, I, I forget who said it, but you know, player development starts when they walk in the building, and it starts with everybody It's not just the coach that's in charge of the kid, it's the strength coach. Like, if a kid was struggling and TV, you know, TVs working with him, he can give them some pause, you know, I mean, it right, all of us looking after, especially these young kids that are, are coming in at such a young age, you know, to me, from the moment they walk in the building, the player development starts, that's from everybody in the building needs to be like, you know, you know, positive teaching these kids, you know, that, you know, just just kind of mentoring them, and I'd had to make it through because they don't, they don't know any better. You know, it is, it's, it's the whole thing. I mean, the value, the strength, the strength, the weightlifting room, or the strength room is huge. It's huge to go in there, feel good about yourself, you know, you know, TV always had a great positive, good positive energy in there. You know, a lot of guys didn't, you know, didn't really want to put in the work, but you get going. You push all the buttons, you need to get to get a goal into, hey, this is gonna make you better kind of thing. Let's have fun with this. This shouldn't be a chore should be fun. But it starts with that it starts with the people on the medical staff in the training room working on like it all. It's all connected in the programs that

Tim DiFrancesco  1:46:34

have success. It's all connected. Yep. Yep. Everybody's on a string with that everything. You said it so perfectly if but you have to have this, this. Maybe it's innate, maybe it's something you picked up over time. But it's some fourth, probably, but it's this ability to recognize when you know what this guy just needs to get out of the practice facility today, we need to go have a burger. We needed to you know, and you know, just it's the the fishbowl is, is really, you know, it's intense, right? And, you know, that's where, I mean, I start to think about what you're saying and, and the perspective as you're describing it, the coaching portion of your chapter was rewarding in many ways, but really gnarly in other ways, because of the hours that were there. But you start thinking about the what you're describing and how your perspective was you start looking at you have, you know, literal ties to wooden lute Olson, Phil Jackson, Tex winter, I mean, you know, this stuff isn't just, you know, then the playing success you had and in and around those, those coaches, it's pretty powerful. So, man, that's, that's incredible. Yeah,

Jud Buechler  1:47:58

it was yeah, no, I. Yeah, it was, it was. I was, again, gratitude for all of it, and I couldn't be any happier. I'm proud of it. I'm happy about it. I'm at peace with what happened and would of course, like to have been, I've been involved in some better teams that I coach, but that's, that's, you know, that's all part of it, too. And in some ways, it makes me appreciate those years, we want even more, you know, yeah, I'd really been right, harder, like losing teams like that my whole career. And that that was hard. And at the end, it's all about the people right to the people you meet the friendships you make. That's that's what you remember. Right?

Tim DiFrancesco  1:48:47

I mean, you worked with like, Julius, I got a chance to work with Julian man when he was human beings ever. He I watched him today. And I know you do too, and how happier we are. So I know, you and I are just thinking the same things because we were with him when, you know, there were the growing pains that every young player has to go through. Now for some players that that they don't have the ability to look at things as resources to go back to, to reflect and say, How can I you know, learn from this? How can I get better Julius had that, you know, wasn't a coincidence that he could eventually put it together the way he has, and you know, that that's, you know, that's the kind of guy that it just kind of gives you goosebumps, you know,

Jud Buechler  1:49:31

yeah. So happy for because you you were with him when he was struggling. I had him in New York, right? He couldn't get that was after he signed up the biggest deal he had he didn't right handle it because he's now the man he doesn't really know how to be the man right? Because he's right. he's ever been the man so he was like pressing all the time. And then he just finally clicked and he just settled in and you know, it's guys like that that you see have success that you just think that maybe you had

Tim DiFrancesco  1:50:08

it's the best. The best, and especially when you know they deserve it and yeah, no, it's, Well, John, this has been incredible, I want to be rich, I could just keep going. But we'll, we'll do a part two, but this was, this was just phenomenal. I, you know, I think people listening will just be able to kind of go back over these conversations and, you know, the gravity and the depth of what you bring to, you know, way beyond, you know, the outward, you know, how that success that you had happened, and thank you for shedding some light on that. And we finish we finish every show with a question. This is the basketball strong podcast. And so, what I asked every, every guest is to tell us what it means to you to be basketball strong. And you will go you could go spiritual on this, you could go technical, you could go any way you want. This is your definition.

Jud Buechler  1:51:16

It means to me, when you when you said basketball strong, it made it made me think about all the time that I put in with that sport. And, and just from such a young age, you know, like we started off, you know, fourth, fifth sixth grade all the way through. And, you know, all those steps that I made, and the success and you know, I'm having a lot of luck with that to being at the right place at the right time. It just it it makes me feel great that I had that in my life. And it's it's shaped me big time of who I am today. I don't hang my had on any of it. But all those experiences and going through all the ups and downs really shape you to the person you are and how I parent, and how I am in a relationship. And I feel like all of it made me strong. And I'm very proud of that.

Phil White  1:52:26

Well, that's

Tim DiFrancesco  1:52:27

that you can underline that. And you should be and we're just so grateful for you taking the time out of your your schedule to share this with us and to listeners because this is going to help a lot of people. Thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed today's show and we hope you did. Please give us a good review on Apple podcasts or whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. And so you never miss a weekly episode, be sure to subscribe and follow. You can find previous episodes on our show website. That's www dot basketball strong podcast.com For more basketball performance resources, and nagging injury solutions, follow me on Instagram at TD athletes edge and follow Phil at Phil white books. Until next week's episode, stay basketball strong