Zak Boisvert: Turning Losing Basketball Programs Into Winning Ones, Developing Character at Army, and Taking Players from Good to Great at Indiana State

Phil White  00:48

Yeah, absolutely. So we don't take the risk of doing live intro or outro at all. So, are we base basically have a bunch of questions and then 10 Last one about, oh, actually I'm not going to ruin it, I'll just let him surprise you. It won't be anything too crazy but um yeah so we do all that afterwards so if it's cool with you guys because I know it's later with you two hours later, he is here in Denver, so I'll just carry on, I'm going to hit record, it will tell us it's recorded and then I'll just give us a 321 countdown say we're live and then Tim can roll with the first question if that's cool Zach.

Zak Boisvert  01:23

Awesome, let's do it.

Phil White  01:24

All right, man this rocket. Alright. Record recording in progress, and 321, and we're live.

Tim DiFrancesco  01:37

Zach, I want you to take us back as vividly as you can to when you first remember falling in love with the game, what that was like and take us through kind of what spurred after that,

Zak Boisvert  01:50

um, for me it was as vividly as I can. It was, um, it was around the third or fourth grade and it was being a part of where I grew up in Portland, Maine. I had great. There was a great basketball camp local basketball camp in their great youth coaches are there's a couple of really good organizations, there's an organization called the SC youth that did an unbelievable job of highly organized, they taught skills they actually taught off the court as well there's an eighth core component. And that's when it started with just, you really started with I think really good coaching that were organized that cared about you, that made it fun, and I really think that the question wasn't specifically how I knew I wanted to coach but I fell in love with the game through those really cool youth organizations have a young basketball camp and a, a, one league, and I feel that quickly is when I knew I wanted to get into coaching as well, because I felt the impact, a coach could have I could feel how he made me feel. And then I want to I aspire to try to make us try to make someone else feel that way as well.

Tim DiFrancesco  03:08

That's awesome. Can you talk a little bit about the, the legendary kind of lineage of some of the great coaching that come out of the Great State of Maine because I don't think people really realize unless you've been in some of those circles,

Zak Boisvert  03:21

man, you're on and so it's it's it's amazing Brett Brown was from, from Portland Maine Brett Browns from South Portland, Maine. He played it so I grew up playing against his father's father was a legendary high school coach. It worked for Rick Pitino at Boston you, he was the high school coach of the Catholic school across town from me. Wow, gosh long staff who's now an assistant coach with the Chicago Bulls he was the Bucs. And with the Knicks before that, he played in the high school Crosstown High School and other public high school Portland high, He was four years older than me. He coached me in basketball camp. Steve Clifford coach is from Maine coach in Maine and I remember when I was working at the University of Maine. We had Woodstock High School, come down to our team camp and they're from the smallest classification in Maine and they had, they had four guys so they had to get. There's a really good girls basketball player in town in their town and they allowed her to play and they asked us, they asked for permission, because that was their fifth member of the team, and then from the small classification I remember I told our director ops at the time I was like, you realize that team over there that's where Steve Clifford got a star that was his first job, and he ends up in the he ends up coach in the Orlando Magic and like, think about that right, think about like where you needed to get you to go from there and think of the unseen hours that took you from there to the Orlando Magic in Am I missing one Clifford Longstaff Brett Brown is it just to I almost feel like I'm missing one. But cool culture in the state. That's pretty. Yeah, they love. They love they love. They love their basketball they love their high school ball. It's a cool culture and frankly I wouldn't be here without that culture, there's some great camps like I mentioned, growing up like Deke Whitmore's run is pine tree basketball camp and Colby, I live I went to, I was a part of pine tree basketball camp for 13 Straight summers between going there as a camper, being a counselor when I was in college and being a coach, after for 13 Straight summer so part of why I'm here, is through the organizations like that and that's why anytime I get a chance to talk to high school coaches I always, I always try to make a point to like never neglect never, never take for granted, I should say, the impact you can have on kids because I'm here because of my high school coach. I'm here because my youth coaches, never take that never take that for granted

Phil White  05:51

or not. Yeah, go ahead, Tim. Well I was

Tim DiFrancesco  05:55

just gonna go before we get too far away, I want you to go into I've heard you talk a little bit about the coaching acumen of Steve Clifford I just want to double click on him a little bit because I work with seed I worked with Cliff and, and what a gem that guy is just a great person and an incredible basketball mind. You know and I want you to just kind of, just, just open up that file a little bit for us because he gets lost in the shuffle because he's so humble.

Zak Boisvert  06:26

Yeah so humble and frankly he hasn't had quite the success team success other guys have ADD he's ever bro broken through. I'm trying to think, I don't think he's ever won a playoff series but like, frankly, the NBA and understand this, I'm saying, Take this grain of salt because I've never coached a day at that level in my life but I'm also very invested in them very I try to learn at the NBA, you have good rosters, you, you know, you win games you don't have good rosters you don't and frankly I thought that seemed Clifford was a guy I always stuck out left out that list just because necessarily another team success. My point is he got out he squeezed everything he could think about. Yeah, now see Clifford was wringing that towel every day whatever was in that he was getting out and his teams are always so fundamentally sound may never turn it over, they never gave up transition baskets, never sound offensively. I always said like, there, there are a number of coaches I've said about a number of coaches, you want to learn basketball watch more. Steve Clifford watch more Rick Majelis rock. Rick bird watch more Bill Cohen Northeastern, like a newest I could list about 1015 Guys, I've said that but over the years, see Clifford's one of those guys were consistently set at about, you know, wasn't anything fancy but it's really solid fundamental and I'll give Steve COVID kind of credit, because it was amazing, even when he was an NBA head coach, you'd come back and do clinics for me in high school basketball coaches and that's how I got a chance to know him a little bit.

Tim DiFrancesco  07:48

No i That said, I always thought that was really cool of him

Zak Boisvert  07:51

and I think he's just terrific coach that gets left off that list, he's maybe hasn't necessarily had both success he's had, but when you want to talk about corporate knowledge of the NBA. I once heard an NBA coach say there was no one in the league that knew the league, more than Steve Clifford, in terms of personnel and other teams in terms of what they're running, no one was on top of it like Steve Clifford was with some NBA head coaches didn't necessarily specialize in that Steve Clifford did and he, no one knew the league better than Sid Clifford,

Tim DiFrancesco  08:22

yeah you know the thing I love about cliff is, it's easy to get, you know, sort of over your over your, your tips a little bit, going, going into the NBA job and you start kind of getting a little bit outside of yourself and he just, you know, he just was him, you know, and that's what I think pre players. You know when, When we, when he was with the Lakers in my someone, the first four seasons I was there I have to go back and look at the the years exactly we overlap but, you know, Kobe was in his final four seasons and, you know, Coby gravitated toward him as the season went on he just saw, you know, Steve knew what he was talking about, he wasn't going to be asked him, he was going to get straight to the point, and, and he was not going to try to, he wasn't enamored by Kobe he was, he respected Kobe and Kobe respected that and I think that that always just, you know, just stuck with me is, you know, Steve had this way about just being himself and, you know, take them at face value and it's pretty damn good.

Zak Boisvert  09:24

Yeah, and I forget who said, I'm so tick that I'm going to I'm going to quote someone without being able to say maybe will come to me as I say it, but a part of you should come out in your coaching, who you are, should come out daily in your coaching in that I think the best coaches have a way about them that they just they're real they're authentic they're genuine, and you should let that come in your coaching. And I'm not saying I'm perfect with that I do feel that, I think, one of my point my players might say hey he's not perfect but you know what, he's not trying to be something he's not, and I could never be like this. I have way too much fun I'm way too, spontaneous and way too sarcastic, you know, to like be the serious guy all the time so I'm not gonna try to be that guy that's not who I am, it'd be awkward if I wasn't I think the point that makes sense. What was your point and Steve Clifford. He's authentically himself because what's the Don Meyer wine. Don't try to be someone else, because you're I'm butchering that but essentially you're not good at it, you know, you know, being you when you're not, you're not good at being someone else so just be who you are.

Phil White  10:34

No, I love that, um, Zach, you mentioned a phrase a minute ago that I want to go back to for a second and you said the unseen hours. Yeah, so I know that Coach Wooden in many of his wooden isms we could call them maybe what John Wooden quotes so sure a lot of them out there one that's always resonated with me is that character reveals itself when no one's watching and he got that from the Bible right he's just kind of paraphrasing it a little bit but for you, both as a, as a player growing up and then as a coach, what are those unseen hours look like, what have been the things that you've been so diligent with behind the scenes and what impact has that had on your development.

Zak Boisvert  11:15

Yeah when I whenever I think about unseen hours I was saying, Damian Lillard quote to in order to shine in front of 1000s You need to outwork 1000s in front of nobody in order, in order to shine in front of 1000s You need to outwork 1000s in front of nobody those for me have been. And I almost refrained from, like, glorifying it because the grind of it all coaches love to talk about grinding grinding for Starbucks. I mean a heck I get. I literally I get to do what I absolutely love for a living and I'm still fooling everyone and clicked on paycheck off of it. So like I say this, like, I just been diligent and been consistent I think we all what we saying is you overestimate how much you can get done in a day you overestimate you underestimate how much you can do in a year, so if you were just intentional with daily work and intentional with sustained effort over a period of time. It's amazing what can happen so that's what we're talking about unseen hours. So, it just takes showing up every day and it takes about doing a little bit, and being solid every day and if you can stack that up it's, you know, the eighth wonder of the world is compound interest so you know what I've done is I've just tried to stick to a routine and I try to watch an hour film every day. I try to keep up maintain a growth mindset I try to read 30 minutes a day, and those are the two things that frankly, they don't they're not glorious in itself and our film is a much 3030 minutes of reading isn't much, but over a week that's seven hours of film that's straight half hour so reading that's, you know, over a month that's 30, that's 30 hours of film. That's 15 hour I'm testing my Fordham education here that's 15 hours a reading stack that up over a year over two years, three years, four years you can really find a way to get ahead that way so those will be the two things I would do that and I've tried to do it with, you know, big aspect, my job is recruiting so trying to make sure I'm doing my daily work in that area as well. But those would be the things that come to mind also, as well as investing in relationships with buyers and trying to do that in a way that's both organic but you also want to be systematic with it, so I try to touch our players at in some shape or form. Once a day, you know, if I'm not running into them so that's a way to kind of systematize that day that daily work but a wall so making sure it's, it's, it's organic and it feels genuine it doesn't feel like always just checking a box.

Phil White  13:38

No, I love that in terms of books. Are there any takeaways from perennial classics that you've read again and again by classics I mean ones that you find classic I'm not talking about Shakespeare necessarily but um, any lessons that you've imparted I'm sorry.

Zak Boisvert  13:55

There's so many, there's so many, you know, in, I was really afraid you're gonna ask me for my favorite books because then I was already shut no less I

Phil White  14:06

could be low brow I'm in I'm in a big,

Zak Boisvert  14:10

am I gonna hit which ones I'm not, I guess in I'm gonna avoid cliche but I guess the thing that constantly comes up is that idea of being process oriented in the great ones that oh that always comes up of making sure to minimize your window, and try to focus on the thing right in front of you and being process oriented and not waiting for the results to show, and you know I think about that with even score takes care of itself. I think that with atomic habits and just you know things and those are just, you know, and even in ways that, you know, even a ways that aren't necessarily a books about process itself but you see that concept come up in another call and another thing that came up is, you know, constantly some of these books is curiosity for pure curiosity sake and just be curious about the world be curious about your job, be curious about, in trying to get better and adopting that growth mindset and I was sent back when the book that probably impacts my day to day coaching more than anyone else's Mindset by Carol Dweck and I always send to the story that Stan van Gundy reads the book and asks, S A, for an audience with her and he flies out and she's going to give them two hours off he's gonna, she's gonna give him two hours on a Friday afternoon he flies out to Stanford's Palo Alto campus and he's armed with his question, he's gonna stop what he's doing, he says, how much you praise how much you criticize and show well that's wrong question. So he flew all the way out to the country. He says like well that's wrong question it's about what you praise, and what you criticize and I you know, so I don't know where I was going with that one gross mindset to process oriented in three curiosity you read Walter Isaacson's book on Leonardo da Vinci, and essentially it's be relentlessly curious, be just ask yourself why why is it that way, try to you know examine things from the first principle and I think those are concepts that you know stand the test of time, because much as this game changes in much, you know, it's what stayed the same as much as the world changed. What's also stayed the same. I think those, those things, you know, have stayed they have remained the same after all these years. Where did you get

Tim DiFrancesco  16:22

that Zach Where did you have this, you know, curiosity that I can sense in the in the work that you put out there you know you you're you're clearly passionate about it who get who imparted that

Zak Boisvert  16:35

my daddy to things wanted and so it's the it's GLORIA It's a gory happenstance two things my dad is a ferocious reader. And the best thing you know my parents gave me were the love of reading and they just they took me to, they took me to the library every every Saturday I'd go to the library with my dad and you know it just kind of was an idea of like, Oh, if we don't know the answer, hey let's find a book to look it up and they just exposed me the power read and so I think that's the part of it because if you will have to read there's a there's an answer out there in some book and then go or happenstance. When I was six years old they. A lawyer dentist office closed that was right kitty corner on the same corner as us on the street kind of around the corner, if that makes sense. And it was empty for about six months and then there was a little rumor that there was a library branch moving in and I changed my life forever so that's what's real wow stuff and so you know that was literally, you know 300 yards from my home from my childhood home. So, some of that stuff and then again great coaches great mentors that just encouraged me to say the answers out there somewhere. You see, if you work at it, you can find it.

Tim DiFrancesco  17:50

Zach when you were a player what, what was the scouting report what was your, what was your I O

Zak Boisvert  17:55

I absolutely stunk and that's what's great about. Well no, that's what that's what's great about the game that's what's great about not to get like too crazy with it like America like I'm, I was cut from my high school team and I'm sitting here and I get cut from high school team I get to coach guys that have gone on to play in the NBA because frankly, and that's the glory of coaching is that the truth of the matter is, and I swear the higher level you go it's the more true it is where it's actually people think it's the opposite but if you can make someone better. They don't care if you're black, white, blue, purple five to seven for whether you played or didn't play if you can make them better, they will listen to you There's nothing that motivates like competency that if I tell a guy that they are going to show on a pick and roll. If we zip the ball ahead to the seaside and he and he hits an a reasonable head and then that guy can hit the show the roll, and he does then the game and our biggest game of the year against Navy does that and he sees it's got a bucket like That's motivation by competency, and that's and there's nothing more powerful in the world than that. So to give you my the God's honest truth is I was a terrible basketball player, come from my high school team my high school coach kind of saw something in me said, think about coaching and you know it went from there but that's what's great about it is like you know I get to do this for a living in coach a game that I was terrible at.

Tim DiFrancesco  19:22

Is there anything that coach Bo there, would, would, could tell, player, Zach, young player growing up that could have, you know maybe made you make that help you make that team, what would you have would told you.

Zak Boisvert  19:35

Well I think it would have been something that just about like, there are things I knew I wasn't good at and like I didn't work on them and I didn't work to get better at them frankly, the your, your success is found in your daily agenda, like there are things that I didn't do well that frankly like I didn't work to address them. So why like, why would I expect that I got better shooting one, I didn't work as hard as I could add it, why didn't I you know I didn't have a left hand, why didn't I work on my left hand so I would have kind of asked myself the question is are what are you doing everyday to address those to address those. So then again also, you know, you can't turn, you know, chicken, dung into chickens. We got to get new players, if

Phil White  20:28

that's all that reminds me of one, I interviewed the great track coach Dan faff a little while ago and, and my co author Jim aftermost said So Dan, if you were to train me to get around the, the 400 meter track and under you know whatever time it was you know, 47 seconds or something where would we start and he said, Well I tell you to get a bit better bicycle, get a car,

Zak Boisvert  20:52

and then I forget who said it, but along the same lines is like in history coaching, no, no coach ever made a slow guy fast like that's never occurred so you can on the margin Jim packs on the margins but uh, you know, so, I think both are true.

Phil White  21:08

I'm not a fan so it sounds like you know your commitment to daily film you got that commitment. You got your daily reading. When did you first come across the power of routine and stuff, and then from there when When and how did you implement that.

Zak Boisvert  21:21

Um, so well when I come across the power routine, I'm part of a frankly I think a part of was my dad my dad just said he was a lawyer, he just worked his butt off frankly I think that was, and none of us said the Power Team with a glory of showing up at the Jerry West quote you never get much done in life you only work in the days you feel good, so like part of it was just watching my dad just get up every day and work and work his butt off and I think he passed on to me because frankly, I just took whatever I was doing pretty seriously and I never really thought about it I just kind of did it because I think he frankly set that tone and I remember, this is a digression I swear I'll get back to film because I'll tell you how I adopted that but I just, my dad set a tone for like hey if you're gonna have a job, you're gonna work hard at it you're going to be diligent. I remember one of my best friends growing up behind me and he had a his dad owned a huge landscaping company the biggest landscaping company in Maine, and there were four kids in the family so they ended up in his landscaping, there was a lot of, there was a lot of labor and so they end up hiring. Heck, they had four kids in the span of I think five grades Lana Pyron old ton of the males, kind of in the area wasn't a large areas they end up hiring a ton of males in the area, and guys would do it and some guys would laugh some guys wouldn't remember I did it. One summer and then he and the dad said, we're close neighbors, he said hey, you know, he has your back for college. If you ever need shifts, just call me a couple days. Call me a couple of weeks in advance, I'll get you on the schedule and so I did that for two or three straight summers and I remember it was kind of the end of one summer, one of the summers. It was very short period of time because essentially I was really moving with my coaching journey and I was kind of clear like that might have been the last summer and I remember I was walking out when I was dirty as heck, and I was walking out of office one day and he said, Zach, you know why I was left, like, I never made these arrangements for anyone else you realize that like, kind of, if they weren't able to work full time I will gone. I said, You know I didn't notice that. But I really appreciate you doing it, he said, You know, I've been, I've employed, you know probably dozens of my daughter and son's friends over the years, there's only one I actually would hire, and that was you and I remember like, that's about as good a compliment, as I've ever received. And I didn't know what at the time, like they had done that but I'll tell you like, that was like one thing I was like you know what, like there's a value in doing something like this, you know, a you know a job done is the signature of the person that did it, or sweep the streets as Michelangelo would the Sistine Chapel or paint the Sistine Chapel, so like, you know, there's some glory in that I've just found that and that's my dad man My dad worked his butt off, he drove an hour each way, support for our family and he was a lawyer and had his own practice and worked his butt off and just did whatever he could to provide for our family and you know make sure I had the stuff I you know I wanted and, you know, the stuff, me and my brother and I wanted so our film everyday started because I wrote Tom Crean I was, I was on my BUZZ WILLIAMS I was a call I was in college I was a manager and I was like, I'm gonna write every manager guy in the country who didn't play basketball and I wrote them all, and anyone that would respond to me, I would anyone that would respond to me I would fall back up with them, and Tom Crean respond and say give me a call and I talked to Tom Crean and what he said in that conversation really impacted the rest of my life because he said, Zack everyone says recruit, recruit, recruit, but there's always gonna be a place in the game for people that study the game deeply and that know the game is like that doesn't just happen. You need to work at it and so you need to work to study the game so if you're going to know the game you have to study it, and he suggested I watched film every day and so I started just watching our film every day, and it just went from there and that was called the eighth wonder of the world is compound interest, like I said, and I, Dick Whitmore who ran the pine tree basketball camp in Maine, suggested I get a notebook and I got this marble notebook that you use for your physics class when you're in high school and I would just cut out, diagrams, and paste it in there and whatever I would see I would watch my film and I didn't know what I was talking about at first and I was right down the simplest stuff but I just kept working at it and it was fun how it grew from that and from that day on I really I haven't missed many days I really haven't and I think that's the whole glory of routine is, I swear it's easier to do something 100% of the time than to do it 95 Just because then decisions making is out of the way. And I think that's a big, big part of it.

Tim DiFrancesco  25:58

No, that's, that's, that story gives you goosebumps of of how you're Yeah, land landscaping employer, You know what he said to you there and like you said it was it's sometimes those comments, they they hit you, but they don't stick on you until you look back on them but can you, what was your first paid coaching job, what was it, how did you get that and what was that like,

Zak Boisvert  26:21

um, first paid co job so one when I was in college I did all the camps and then all the camps I sold Gatorade a five star I wrote a chaperone the boss. Hoop Group team camp I worked Notre Dame's basketball camp I added all that stuff but you know the so that was, you know, the early infancy that got me hooked but Tim clothes offered me a job for once a 20 100 at Iona College, Tim clothes was a longtime high school coach that had won at the high school level and gotten the JUCO job and one of the JUCO jobs division two job and won the Division Two job, he was going to get the, he was going to get a got a job at Iona College in 2010 As I was graduating from Fordham University, which is about 10 miles south of Iona college, and I want my dad I think the whole time was kind of hoping I was going to go into law school as a graduate from an English with an English degree in a degree in English so I'm using that every day. What's up, and my parents made a ton of money from me going to Fordham University, my dad I think was hoping I was gonna go to law school. And I told them that I was leaving, I was going to graduate college where they just probably paid about two something for me to go to school and I was gonna go and be a basketball coach for a grand total of 30 2800 And I remember my mom at dinner one night when I told them about the move said Well, New York's expensive but I think 300 a month you can make work and I said, 2800 for the year. Right, because it's only a month so I can work on the summers and make money and all of a sudden I was calling the landscaping company backs and hey I need to shift it to so i want to call it, man to Tim clothes. Clothes know all about basketball cuz typicals is one of those guys, he'd never been assistant his life and I swear. The game has been changed by guys that there's a, you can fall innovations by guys that weren't assistant coaches because they, they, that's how inspiration comes and this inventions, mother. In necessity is the mother of invention or vice versa. But those are the guys that frankly they have to be so pragmatic about their approach, because they need to say how can we be a little bit better than we were the night before so if you think about basketball. Think about major innovations the game of basketball so Bob Knight invented motion offense he was a head coach at age 25, an assistant coach for two years in army before he got the job. John Beeline is, you know networks the pistons, he's very innovative with the two guard offense, he's never been an assistant coach in his life, he's a head coach at age 23 Vance Walberg Joel drive motion very innovative, you never been a head coach in this law and I'm an assistant coach in his life, he invents dribble drive motion offense because he's got a really good point guard and his slow center keeps getting in the way. So he essentially says hey, you need to see opposite of the ball all the time. And that ends up morphing into the moment into total drive motion Billy Donovan brings the spread pick and roll to college game, he's a he's a head coach at age 29 Marshall University so my point is, Tim clothes, head coach his whole life never been assisted, he gets i on a job and he just, he's his mid 50s He was an unusual hire He's a former cop on Long Island. He says if I'm going to go down, I'm going to go down and do it my way and he had such an innovative fresh approach he was, he was shooting threes and playing small and playing small ball so much quicker and he didn't know anything about the analytics, he just the analytics later confirmed what he knew intuitively and he was such a master coach and I learned so much from him work from for three years and absolutely loved every second of it until I got a chance to make more money and I'm actually fortunate because really, I only really grinded it not making money and I'm even I'm not ashamed to say it, my parents have given me so much and even that year they really took care of me they paid rent, and they paid rent sometimes and I landlord was a sweet old lady with an old lady's attic. Mama Bay Miss Blaney married Blaney and a couple times she just forgot to collect rent or didn't cash my check or one time I said I suddenlink pay for this month so now I got it and I said no I know I know he said yeah I got it and I was looking at it I was like, No, I said, Yes, I got it. I was taken care of and really I only grinded it not making money, one year and, like, I'll talk to a lot of young coaches about that that's what ends up driving guys out of the professional times as you know with, you know, not being able to sustain the quality of life I mean you guys know what like Tim, you've seen it with like those NBA video coordinators like they're not women Lord and like you know in your belief that you know cost elevens high and part of it is, can you stick in it long enough and just accept the quality of life long enough that to do, and I was fortunate I really only did for one year. So one year I made 2800 and I move quickly up to the sum of, of, it was supposed to be 35,000 but the last seven were going to come as a signing bonus trying to get you stay for a year and I had to leave a month and a half, early so I 1000 for prorated year so I didn't, I didn't stick around long enough to make the get the big check at the end so rolling, rolling, now 20,000 That was absolute rolling. Compared to that, you know 2750 I was making beats one for love man worse than coaching beats best they doing anything else.

Tim DiFrancesco  31:56

Oh man, that's incredible. What, um, as you with, with your role in that assistant role you kind of have to wear a lot of hats you you know you fell in love with the film side of things, you're I'm assuming doing a fair amount of recruiting and a lot of those positions, what are what are some of the either signals that you look for in a player as you're watching them in high school ranks and it's hard to see the how sometimes how the game can translate sometimes it's, it's tricky to see that depending on the league that they're in and the competition, they're playing against and then what they will be at and what are the signals though that you look at that, look at that say, well, there's that, that and that and we can build off of that.

Zak Boisvert  32:43

I think you always kind of have to think about things that you can improve and things you can't and so like, like I always think like a skinny kid alright that's what we, that's why we pay a strength conditioning coach that's why we built weight rooms right, we that's why we have a nutrition center like so like that's something we can control now there's, there's a certain like element as kids so skinny can't put on weight because his body's frail by Frank like that that's something control but like they're things you can't and so like, my poor, like so, one thing is like feel feel and now what does feel mean feels hard to unnecessarily always define but you kind of know when you see it it's the ability to think the game and see things as they happen, because I've never seen a good player who can't think and maybe he's not as cerebral as other guys but they all can think and so feel is a big one because it's feel is hard to teach and takes a long time, and frankly sometimes you can get frustrated with a guy, and he gets frustrated that level and he leaves before that. All that work of developing that feel kicks in, so feel is the big one.

Tim DiFrancesco  33:46

Can you give an example of feel and in game situation you can maybe Yeah,

Zak Boisvert  33:52

it's hard to find a feel for me is understanding of how to play an understanding of being able to read the game in real time, and being able to, you know, for that game to slow down for a guy, and for them to see things and see coverages and see the decisions as they're happening and not have to. I think sometimes players will predetermine their reeds they'll come off pick and roll and Sam thrown into the roll man, and they'll throw it to them whether it's open or not, or maybe they'll throw it to the roll man or they'll shoot it the players great feel can come off that pick and roll and see the roll man see where helps coming from the weak side and go to throw the ball to the weak side corner but then see that that guy the high guy on the weak side dropping down, so it works weak side corner. Alright and then he throws the ball up top for an open shot so like that's the feel that comes into play. Now can you get better at that, yes, but it takes a long time and and feel can also mean a lot of different things feel convenient understanding of who am I, what do I do well what are my teammates do well and understanding. Conceptually the different ways that we can, I can empower my strength and empower my teammates strings. That's where feel okay and I think, feel, is not easy easy to find but you know when you see it a little bit from from that I always think I always think back, I was think back I just told by your story so maybe it makes sense maybe it doesn't you guys can decide one time. Reporter referee was talking to Greg Maddux after a game he said you know Greg is one of the smartest pitchers in the game. What do you think money kind of come off he goes war. Suppose pitchers game. What do you mean, and he said, in the kind of report stammered and he felt Maddox was kind of challenging him he said, What do you mean, I just think you want to spice pitch in the game he said well yeah well why is that come frankly like sometimes I think you guys glorify that like, he said, What makes me as far as pitcher in the game is because I throw down in a way like that makes like again he's like that's what I do is I throw down in the way, if, like, so I think sometimes basketball is simple game and ultimately I think Oscar Robinson said it basketball comes down to, you know, when, when to pass when to shoot

Tim DiFrancesco  35:58

do don't overthink it. You don't want to pass

Zak Boisvert  36:00

no one to shoot so trying to simplify that game, but also, I understand it's a law, it's a law, some requires some players, it's a lot harder than that so feel is a big thing I look for a guy in I'm trying to figure out who has it because I know it's the hardest one to teach

Tim DiFrancesco  36:16

sort of from the if you use a quarterback analogy right it's like they say that the great ones have that ability to run down their, their, their checks all the checkpoints and be able to come back around once and, and they've seen them all without even seemingly being able to do it because that pick and roll as you described it happens pretty damn quick. Yeah, to make that decision.

Zak Boisvert  36:37

You know, and as I study it and frankly this summer is amazing how few basketball books are read and how, how many more teaching books in terms of teaching in the classroom books I read and there's none better than Duggal MAVs book the coaches guide to teaching and if you want to teach guys better decisions you have to teach them what to look at and you know where you got to teach guys, what they should be looking at and giving players what they're reading, and that allows them to make better decisions.

Tim DiFrancesco  37:05

Is there anything else that a player could do if they're, you know, getting feedback from a coach like he's just got to be able to get those reads more more natural more fluid and get a better feel is there anything else besides just, you know, getting reps and having coaches show them what they're actually looking at.

Zak Boisvert  37:22

No, I mean I think that's the biggest thing is, is feedback. Yeah, being put in being put in situations to make that specific game reads within the top context of the sport they're playing, making those reads, and then getting feedback from an expert coach. That is kind of that and that's. And then repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat over and over again of being put in those situations within the context of the game, get in making decisions, getting feedback from the coach about teaching them what it is they're looking at. And how that determines their next series reads. That's it right there, man. Man that's coaching is defined, and then I'd say, then finding a, you know frame show he says, if you're the best player on the playground, find a new playground and then try to do it against the best competition again, that's that's the best.

Tim DiFrancesco  38:13

That's yeah, that's that says it all right there. Yeah. What Go ahead, Phil,

Phil White  38:20

I was just gonna say I'm with recruits from a character standpoint, are there any red flags you look for, are there any character traits you particularly like in recruits in the limited time that you get to know them as a person or get to get to know their families,

Zak Boisvert  38:36

and this might be a little bit counter this might be a little bit counterintuitive, I should say. It's hard, and I think sometimes we were a little bit too hard on ourselves because I understand this like the NFL Draft. Saints Seahawks game is going right now like NFL draft that you know these are 32 organizations they have all these scouts they have, they're paying all these people, tons and tons of money they have, they have former FBI agents doing background, guys, and they're screwing background checks up in their school in character research up all the time so like as college coaches understand we're like, we're talking to people that are heavily invested in the interest of these kids so like, they're gonna tell you what you want to hear they're gonna tell you kind of protect the kid at times. So it's really hard. And then also, there's a big difference between basketball character in life characters. Hey, sometimes they don't always run in line with each other. The guy. The best winner leader, most selfless player I've ever coached would have hit every, what's the new thing on Twitter the red flag thing, he would have had one on off the court stuff. He was from the worst part of his area. He, he sold drugs at an early age he was in a gang. He had neck tattoos up the he owned a gun like they're all those things. So my point is it's not as easy as we it's not as black and white as we make it so. Now am I am I saying you should recruit guys that do that. No I'm not, but I'm also saying that really the kid who's really impressive with diverse interests and has all these worldly stuff, understand this, he may not love the game as much as you would like them to so I the thing that stands out basketball character is does he truly love the game, and you got to find a way to answer that. And every coach if you ask them will say yes he loves the game so you got to find ways to drive that answer without necessarily saying, Does he love the game. Yes he does. I love asking, high school coaches to grade guys on scales of one to 10 and take out seven and eight, because they love to say seven, if you ask someone they love seven or eight, it means nothing so you take out seven or eight, make them decide between six and nine boom now we got something. But even then, like, you know, they're, they're invest in that kid's interest so you know they're going to kind of nudge that grade up a little bit for a guy. So that was my long winded way of saying it's really hard. I do look for the love the game but I'll share one insight, an NBA team did a study and they did a study of of draft misses over the year, so my what I mean by draft misses, or they did a study of guys that were boss guys that were drafted to high. In, the number one common similarity between all the guys are drafted, whose careers didn't match their drafts slot, was they all graded extremely well in interviews. Now they weren't unsuccessful because they gridwall in interviews, what it meant was the power of charisma, these guys go into the rooms, and people were wowed and they just, they move their grade up just a little too high and just over, over the course of 1015 years. That was the thing that bore out was guys that interviewed Well, their games were inflated because of how impressed people were, and frankly didn't translate and they end up being overdrafted. So that's the power of charisma and frankly, there's all kinds of interesting stuff across different businesses that say you should, You should really do a lot of work. Prior to meeting someone prior to interviewing them in person because you the charisma, just sways your thinking way too much and I'm not saying it's not important, but I'm saying we overinflated a time so

Phil White  42:50

that versus coach Riley wanted to see I think it was out of Eddie Jones, he was like, Let's see your defensive slides son. Yeah.

Tim DiFrancesco  43:00

Yeah, exactly.

Phil White  43:02

That's great.

Tim DiFrancesco  43:04

So Zack you, you would you say, how would you describe your journey to this point in your coaching career was it sort of as planned. Was it an orthodox was it, you know, along the, you know, was a standard How would you say,

Zak Boisvert  43:18

um, he was, I mean why and I'll share this with you guys because maybe, maybe it helps someone maybe helps him along the way, um, Listen I from an early age, I got my break early and I worked hard for that break I think you know you make your own a you know, takes many sleepless nights to create an overnight success, but like I got my break early and I was the youngest assistant individual in basketball, and I was, you know, excited and I was, but like, if I'm being honest with you like. There have been times when I haven't. I've been frustrated that I, I haven't achieved the success that I want because of how much I care about this profession, how much I put into it. There have been times when I've seen peers that are making more money than me or have a senator higher levels than me that in some that I feel like hey I feel like I work harder. Hey, I feel like I'm better at my job. Hey, why didn't he got that lucky break I didn't like that, Frankly, I'm really frustrated me for a period of time so, and I really, it's important to not let this game and this profession better you because this is just too cool. Yeah, and I hate some corny with when I said it's too great of a game. It's a great profession to let you become embittered by it, but like, frankly, for years I was bitter by that I did. I was feeling, why aren't I having more success, why don't I it frankly it took a lot of work and I'll be, you know it's a I'll share it with you in a public setting but it, you know, and that's only recently and I'm not there yet but like there's been, you know, work with a therapist to talk about that stuff and talk about some mental blind spots I have and some and some, you know, frankly, I think there was a self pity complex that said in there for, for bid I'm still working my way through it but it's okay not to be okay, it's okay to be feeling those frustrations and I really need to be honest with myself about examining where I'm at with those. And I feel like I'm at a better place now but with those but you know that's, you know, to answer your question, I haven't always been at a level exactly where I want to be and, frankly, all you always have to keep in mind that what you're doing is you're doing what you absolutely love and I'll say it again, the best thing coach and beats the worst and coaching beats best they don't anything else and so I, I haven't always lived that and I'm getting better with that because i i Too often, let the frustrations and the success of others and the ego thing and almost a jealousy creep in way too much.

Tim DiFrancesco  46:12

Thank you for sharing that. I mean, you know, I think, with your your person, like some not not like many I wouldn't say but that is all in truly on this one thing and, and, you know, just when you are willing to sort of surrender yourself to that one thing and it can get, at times, you know, it can get, I have to imagine I think of, you know, some of how I approach, what, what I do is, you know, I've only had this one sort of vision of where I'm headed and what I feel like I could ever even attempt to do because I just can't picture another thing and it's, it can get to that place where it's like, okay I expected this to be done at this point and it's like, okay, yeah, we're not we're not there at the moment but I think you know tip of the cap to you for a being open on on that in this in this setting, but also because that's going to help somebody but, but also for, for, you know, being a coach who knew you needed some coaching. Yeah and I think that's really really hard for a lot of people that are at the top of their game like you are at their, you know, an expert and striving to be an expert at their craft but, you know, huge, huge credit to you for that. What would you say in terms of, you know, do you see in, in players who struggle with that, you know from the sense of it's a it's a it's a cutthroat to get to a D one scholarship, there's, you know there's a lot of heartbreak that goes into that. Have you have you helped players have you, you know dealt with players that thought they were definitely D one and it turns out they're not or they're not going to Indiana State they're going to somewhere that's not going to be, you know on TV necessarily that kind of stuff.

Zak Boisvert  48:02

Yeah, I think, like, constantly, you know, there are two areas where when you talk about that is there's two areas where there's the mental side of the game and which, if we truly are, we think, Bob Knight is even close to being correct that, you know, the game is four. Four to one mental, physical, well we don't even come close to that ratio when our wounds. So, the mental side of the game in terms of the cognitive reserve and the decision making that goes into it the film study that goes into it, but also the mental skills that go into it the mental skills of confidence of self talk of routine of all those things that's important, but also to your point is the idea of mental health even away from that even not even talking about sports psychology just normal, are you, because I don't think that stuff separates if with something in your life is misaligned it's hard to go perform at your best. So, and I think frankly in the last 10 years. In my time in the game I've seen an openness though guys talking about their vulnerabilities and. And I think, you know, I think some really noble people at the professional level have frankly made it, I'm saying frankly way too much oh my gosh, have made have made it okay to talk about that. Kevin Love and cow, Lee and D'Amato Rose and I think that's good I mean I really recommend. I'm drawing a blank on it Marty fish has a great documentary done Yes, memory on Netflix I'm drawing a blank on the name of it, I heard a great poem

Tim DiFrancesco  49:48

told, I think, untold Yeah.

Zak Boisvert  49:51

So, it's becoming more commonplace and it's a really cool thing because I think 10 a decade ago, there's some people that wouldn't have found help that are now doing that and they're, they're seeing their life improved and they're also seeing their play improved because it's that stuff bleeds on to the court, or on any playing surface they, they're on.

Tim DiFrancesco  50:15

You mentioned earlier you have one of your routines is to get with or make a touch point with each player daily pretty much was that something that you learned how to do that you said hey I got to get better at this, or was that always just innate for you to know, hey, we've got to keep these connection lines open.

Zak Boisvert  50:32

Yeah I think comes down to this I think my method. My method, how I approach things is what I want to get to, What are the skills I need to, what are the skills I need to have, to, to get there. And then what are the habits I need to develop those skills and so I will part of the reason why I do this, so this is maybe not necessarily that but I won't have great wishes my players, how do I do that, what are the daily habits I need to have in that would be essentially that it'd be, let me work on this relationship every day. But now let me do it in a way that's not just feels like checking a box because building a relationship is the most authentic thing there is in the world so I don't want to do in an inauthentic way. And so, I try to find different ways to do it I try to find ways within my personality like, and that's where like texting is great, because you know I'm also not even talking about I don't want to paint this as I'm having a, you know, having a sermon every week every day with that like the times it's a meme like, did you see this one like, like, you know and you know now most of the time it's about something with ball but also I want them to feel it for me in a way that's uniquely me, and that we can build that relationship.

Phil White  51:55

No, I love that. I'm going back to the mental health thing you said this and not so many words that being in need is not the same as being in trouble so is with regard to the mental health of your, your staff members and the players is it partly you cultivating an atmosphere where they feel safe to admit vulnerability and feel encouraged to, to reach out to you or another coach or professional if needs be. With regard to mental health concerns or is that something you continuing to try,

Zak Boisvert  52:28

but I don't want to take all the credit for that sales thing in society, I think it's a overwhelming approach society, society were saying like, I mean therapy, decades ago, and I also want to speak at a turn with this but, like, was seen as your you have something wrong with you and I think there's just been a general acceptance of therapy over the last several years that creates that I do think we try to do and poach shirts here at any state goes Adler's way to talk about. We do a number of different exercises to do it but like to make sure it's okay if you're feeling emotions and you want to talk to someone about any tie he talks about that, and we you know for, you know, people that are faith based, you know we have, we have a chaplain that you know is with is a good is a part of our program that spends time with our programs on our staff, he spends time with our program. So, I think it's about. First the society's general acceptance of it but then second, Coach church going out of his way to talk about mental health and try to expose guys to different things and it also just creating atmosphere in your program that you're going to be supportive of your players, and that the aim of your program is to for them to your place develop in the best in the people in the program to develop into the best version of themselves and if you're not right, mentally, how are you going to do that.

Phil White  53:48

No, definitely. And you mentioned some mental skills earlier because they're not magic skills right their mental skills they have to be developed much like dribbling shooting, you know, free throw shooting whatever rebounding. Can you talk a little bit more about the development of self talk of confidence or some of these skills in your own life and in your coaching practice

Zak Boisvert  54:07

in part of it has to do and it's been it's been interesting because, um, I've been at times a little bit hesitant because I feel like I'm a little bit outside of my competency, and I don't want to speak to things that I don't know enough about, but there are some things that you have and you can talk about the power routine you can talk about, you know, I have a. And in Tim might, you know, be able to jump in on this. I have a good buddy of mine that says, The three best performance enhancers in sports are our three sleep. Two, confidence, one real steroids. So it will save the number one for another day. works. So we'll talk about another day, but it's often it's the idea of SAR to idea the idea of pumping, you know, self talk and at times I felt like, you know, where am I, am I overstepping Do I not know what I'm talking about, but there are, there were, I found footholds in places I was comfortable with. But I think, again, I've kind of done what I've always done I've read up on it, and the book that if you're a coach wondering about those mental skills. I think the best book there is is it takes what it takes, by, you know recipes Trevor Moe ad, who just passed away, tragically, a month ago and I was really sad I bought our best player. The Trevor's book and it arrived on the day that he actually was announced he had passed away and cancer. And I was giving, I actually arrived and I was giving it to him, I said hey you know what that yucky My mind is I he actually passed away this morning I received this book and I want to get one to give, I want to give it to you today. He passed away this morning, and I think Trevor does an unbelievable job in the book of talking about mental skills and but he also for a coach reading it and allows you to frame some conversations that you have some confidence going in that you feel you can, you're, you're not overstepping your bounds, you're not talking about something you don't, you don't know about you don't truly know it's hard to teach something you don't really know and I think he frames conversations in a way that that does that. That's some that's more.

Tim DiFrancesco  56:27

That's powerful. That's powerful. Um, Zack. Do you, do you have, if I have a term that I use to, you know, within my team and, and, and our crew and staff at TD athlete Saj is a plus teammate. And that can mean different things to different, you know, managers and leaders and teammates but do you have somebody that you either played with coach, or have been around that you, it's just sticks out right away that's, that's the top. A plus teammate that I've, that person is the epitome of being a teammate.

Zak Boisvert  57:05

Yeah, great team so you know great teams have great teammates. Leadership is a leadership is an expectation of everyone, you don't need just you don't need a little letter on your chest. Leadership is improving those around you, those around you so it's expected of everyone. I was, you know, I was fortunate to work. West Point, the United States Military Academy, you know, the school charged with developing the leaders of for our country and get a chance to work there and be around the people that were the fire within the faculty at the school, at the school, you know, the the students that were at the school, the people that would come through there to learn and the people that were there brings there to explore concepts within the academy, it was leadership gold for five years and so I mean I was I was exposed some of the best teammates ever I mean, you know those kids, you know duty on a country to the nth degree is part of the West Point creative for a while struggling to kind of explain to my colleagues, what was different about coaching a West Point student and CO, West Point basketball player and someone else and then finally, one point I read the Creed at West Point the student, the the creed that all students live by and they say, a pledge to always choose the harder right over the easier wrong to choose the harder right over the easier wrong. I mean, life down to a phrase view always choose the harder right of these you're wrong, you're gonna end up in good places. So my point is, all those people I coach I mean I can I can I can name any one of them. Coach some fierce. Fierce leaders some selfless people. Mark Madden unbelievable teammate Tommy funk unbelievable teammate, unbelievable leader, you know, he just was tough and he would just, he, he, he coached, he led guys by, you know, having a toughness about them and don't be afraid to be the bad guys something to always say, good news doesn't get better with time. I'm sorry, bad news doesn't get better with time. Mac Hoffman, A plus A leader Kane Edwards, a plus leader Nick Frankie, Lonnie grace and so I mean I'm just naming guys I've coach and army guy worked with that army Ben Wilkins I mean talk about all you know talking about a plus teammate. You want to make everyone around them better Bob Walsh who I worked with that name. A plus teammate he really felt as part of his job as my boss, as a head coach that he wanted develop the systems within his program. Oh, so what does he wasn't gonna be judged on that he was gonna be judged on winning and losing, but frankly he thought right, he's job to develop the systems and get them better and get them ready to be head coaches need to have a great teammates those guys were great teammates. You know those come to mind. Yes,

Tim DiFrancesco  59:54

man. That's, that's quite a lesson, and like you said you had a you know, I'm sure you fit into that that crew really nicely and but you had this sort of ad army you had a really open book and and just wide open canvas to kind of learn from any stories any experiences at your during your time at army that really stands out as kind of give you goosebumps type of stuff or stuff you can share about in the trenches there and the teams you had and the people you around there.

Zak Boisvert  1:00:29

There's a story jump out, oh yeah, oh is sorry that jumps out. We play a. We play a road game against NJIT and we play a road game December. We play a road game December our, we lose we Netconnect game we lose by two we get back campus at, you know, must have been 1145 and one of our freshmen who had come in with a lot of hype, but he wasn't really living up to what he wasn't. He was, he wasn't playing all that well. He didn't play at all in the game, and the next morning he had a survival swimming course who's African American kid who black kid who didn't have a lot exposure to a pool grown up and be a part of the curriculum at West Point is you. You've taken a survivor swimming course survivor swimming course isn't, you do the butterfly down and back, and you pass. That's right, you jump off a jump off a board 24 feet in there. Yeah, you jump into the water with weight vest on yeah and yeah, you're tied up and you need there's, it's, it's all dark it's, you know, machine gun noises going in the background it's 100 sides small going it's you know it's not easy. Wow. I remember I was kid was struggling a little bit I was I was cognizant of that. So, I actually, I made plans I was going to go up, he had a survival swimming exam at 545 The next morning, and I grabbed a coffee I hit the road and I was there to watch it and I walk in and our starting point guard who is probably as good as probably top five player all time in school history is sitting there, first row ready to watch this freshman who's struggling he's ready to watch him and I remember the kid failed, the kid failed but he failed the exam and pass. And I remember sitting next to him when we're kind of sitting up and swooping down on the kid and the kid walks up and he's all drenched he's wearing army for army fatigues, including boots up so Absolutely So, and I took a photo of them talking of our point guard and peering over talking to him. It was amazing. You can literally see it in the kids eyes the freshmen of like how much he was paying attention to what the point is, his captain was saying that what's really cool about that is, a month ago I tweeted a picture, because the freshmen had later went on past swimming is now going to graduate from West Point in May and he's actually the senior captain this year. Wow, I didn't say boo, his freshman year, he, he didn't say boom now he's the captain and so the point is, leadership is learning leadership is developed and he saw leadership at the highest level so I was single at that moment that took me a little bit longer to explain that my stories always take forever. No, no,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:03:40

that could elicit a kept PEGI keep going on now when i i love the part, just talking about the look in his eyes as he's sort of listening and

Zak Boisvert  1:03:51

it's all my Twitter it's on my twitter you can see it, tweeted in September when Josh Caldwell was, was named Captain, you can see it, literally, you can see leadership in his eyes about how much he's staring also learn that day and I think sometimes I tweeted this at the time but leadership I think times we try to make it like Zen process or leadership, you know 401 management course of, you know all these case studies and when you're told this you do this and you follow this, you know leadership sometimes is showing up and making sure people know you care, that that, yeah. A big part of leadership is making sure the people underneath you know you care about them and you're thinking about them and you show up everyday form that's leadership to me, and that's what I learned that day, that's what Tommy funk and as I say right now like Jordan Fox Matt Wilson those guys that you know the guy's a coach, an army, I learned a hell of a lot more from them than they learn from me, I'll say that much, Aaron do heart unbelievable team and I should have mentioned them before unbelievable teammate.

Phil White  1:04:47

I love that. Um, so moving on from military to almost, almost I guess you hit class and first responder so I think you mentioned your head coach. I owner had been a cop. Yep. Was there any old cop lessons wisdom experiences that he was able to kind of lateralized into coaching,

Zak Boisvert  1:05:08

it was more work was also normally had been a cop. He had run a catering service he had rent even run his own bar. There was such as like workman like philosophy to him and he's also, he's from a tough part of Queens, and there was just this toughness about him that it just came through in his coach and he was just tough he would, he would tell you like it was and so not necessarily the cop, but it was more about, there was just this everyday guy next to him of showing up blue color. And just this toughness side to him that was, that came through his coach and every day.

Phil White  1:05:43

No, I love that and that was a program that really punched above its weight right I mean did you guys go, go up against Ohio State and the NCAA tournament.

Zak Boisvert  1:05:52

Absolutely, I mean, you know what coach did in his time, I mean his, his winning percentage his record in the conference tournament works a typo is unbelievable and he had unbelievable success and he actually won fortunately he had to, he had to retire due to health reason but he brilliant coach bro, brilliant tactician and unbelievable man he just texted me. We scrimmage on Sunday he texts me good luck right before the game and he's a he's a special person special coach and in unbelievable success he's such an offensive whiz are such an offensive mastermind. I learned so much from him so much from.

Phil White  1:06:30

Speaking of offense. Is it true that you are given more of an American football type title of offensive coordinator at one of your previous jobs was that,

Zak Boisvert  1:06:39

yeah yeah at army, what army in Maine, but really only, you know Jimmy Allen who really, uh, you know, he, he really was innovative in his pro approach there at army and he really, he tab, Ben Wilkins and I've been as a defensive coordinator, myself as the offensive coordinator, he really tapped. That was something he was, he was innovative with and he really gave us, and I've been so fortunate and Tim you kind of mentioned this a little bit or kind of we talked, we talked about a bit as you know, assistant coaching at times especially in college, you're charged you're wearing a lot of different hats and, frankly, it's actually coaching. And I've been fortunate that I've worked from coaches that let their assistant coach and a lot of a lot of head coaches in college, don't let their assistants do that desistance run around get players make sure guys go to class and they coach the team from Bob waltzed back all the way back to Tim to Jimmy Allen at army who really empowered his assistance and really gave them ownership and really thrust myself away thrust myself into some roles that he made maybe before I was a little rowdy but he really empowered me and encouraged me to Hey, try this, I go for it, you know, and then Josh shirts here in Indiana State. I've been fortunate. I haven't been pigeon holed as a recruiter as a guy in charge academics and giant church, I've been able, I've been able to coach and so that's been really fun and so, Jimmy at army really thrust that on me and we learned as I went and I made a million mistakes along the way and it was again it was Jimmy, you know put something together where it was okay to fail and it was okay to it was a growth process and he made it, it was a cycle it was psychologically safe environment where I could try some things and they didn't work I was like, we know we know that doesn't work, so I'm fortunate for for guys that understood that.

Phil White  1:08:40

In that role, you seem to have a real knack of bringing the best out of guards and particularly point guards it Do you have a particular passion to the point guard position and

Zak Boisvert  1:08:49

yes and no, I mean you know I ultimately I do think it's the it's the head of the team I think it's the one that's closest to, I think it's the one called closely, most closely aligned to the Head Coach and the coaching staff. I've had a chance and was being fortunate to work with some really good ones that love the game and start with Scott Machado and I own a but uh you know extend to some guys that had a lot of success UMaine and Tommy funk, who I mentioned earlier, he was the senior captain in that, in the story from before, you know he I showed up to army in September of his freshman year and we spent the next four years, trying to make break down pick and roll coverages and that was just kind of just finding can and, you know, just, you know, being able to find someone like minded and work with them. So, you know, not necessarily, you know, you know that specifically. That's what I've always kind of gravitated towards maybe it's me being short, but also I think those are the ones that experienced most decisions. But, you know, it was something that I've just kind of picked up on I've built some great relationships with those guys over the years.

Phil White  1:09:51

Now I love that talk a little bit about Scott because he played for what three or four different NBA

Zak Boisvert  1:09:57

NBA team now. Yeah, and that was a guy who Tim clue saw Tim clothes was interesting, he had walked in. He walked in and at the end of Scott's sophomore season and Scott and unbelievable freshman year. Those, it was filled with he set the conference tournament record for turnovers. I'm sorry conference record for turnovers and single season his freshman year, but he had the ability to play through some mistakes. He had just an OK sophomore year and Tim got hired, and Tim really challenged them and they're gonna play different style, he's gonna give him a lot more freedom, but he was going to coach them really hard and he was gonna He's gonna give them freedom to do things but he's gonna also, you know, give him some very clear feedback as well and Scott, to his credit, I'm halfway through is September of his junior year, Tim's first year, one point he didn't show up for practice and we thought he was transferring, and he arrived back on campus, on Sunday night, Monday morning I forget, and said, hey coach oh man, you got me. I had to go through some things I had to think about it, but I'm in and he turned around, he let the country assess back to back years, and a plan an MBA, because he took coaching he took coaching hard, he took hard coaching and he internalized it. And he reflected on it and got better as he went and that's credit to Scott and it's credit to the system that Coach Coach put in place but also his willingness to coach guys hard, and I learned that in early age, it was unbelievable lesson, not be afraid that they're gonna balk at it, you know, own it and coach them hard. I think that sometimes people are afraid to coach guys hard including their best players and maybe it's the transfer culture in college basketball or, you know, the level you've been at Tim guys you know Bolton for frayed so you're trying to get a coach fired because frankly, they're more power, right. I think being able to coach your best guys hard is a heck of a skill to have.

Phil White  1:11:56

Yeah. I love that. I'm going back to your days at army I think that at least one of those teams led the Patriots league in field goal percentage right so you mentioned being blessed to have some. A lot of guys had natural talent but, was there anything from a coaching philosophy standpoint there that you were able to say sports or

Zak Boisvert  1:12:16

yeah it was it was a it was, be very clear and very transparent about what a good shot was, and talking about shot selection and shot selection is a big deal and it's something you got to coach and it's always fun to coach because you're telling guys Hey no, that's not a great shot because understanding, Phil, what a great shot for you might not be great shot for me or a and what a great job for Tim is different than that but, so we talked about shot selection a lot and we tried to really get rid of bad shots so we tried to talk about how bad shots for lazy shots and that we need to go from good to great and we talked about hunting great and hunting the wheat phrase we always use is find a great shot for Army basketball every time down the court, and we constantly talk about what a great shot looked like and what we're looking for in a given possession.

Phil White  1:13:09

I love that

Tim DiFrancesco  1:13:11

clarity transparency, I mean it

Zak Boisvert  1:13:14

was always it was delivered in front of everyone to we were very, we were very transparent about across the room that you know guys knew, you know what I was willing, what I would say to Josh to him privately what I would say in front of the whole team to Josh that's not the best shot for you right now in your career where you're at, we need a better shot

Tim DiFrancesco  1:13:34

in that culture, it was, it was expected, it was known it's like you know for. Sometimes I think it's shocking that that would happen in some cultures and then it becomes this big eroding issue but the fact that it was, you know, it was a norm that had to be pretty powerful. Zack, can you at what point in your coaching career was, you know, because something I've admired and I've, I've really just enjoyed the, the, speaking of clarity and the you know the insight and the Reese, the responsible way that you deliver knowledge to typically your audience being other coaches and and you know even players at times in through a social media platform but at what point you know did that happen because there was early stages in your career where social media didn't really even exist right and then it evolved.

Zak Boisvert  1:14:28

Yeah. You know, so there's, there's kind of a, there's a, like a charitable side to it and there's also a self promotional side to it so and I've never tried to hide it. So one, I want to get back to the game, so on anything I said, understand anything I've ever post on Twitter, there's been zero original thoughts post on there, there's nothing new underneath the sun, Lawrence Frank always, you say, ever since John, Pete Nolan Bob Knight, sat down on Newell's living room floor and designed the motion offense because that's how they came up with the motion offense. Ever since then nothing new has been invented again, nothing. So nothing I've ever posted it's been, it's been stolen from someone else. So the whole idea is if I took it from someone, how can I give that back. How can I pay that for there was a, there's an element of that that I want to pay for it. The second thing is this is, I'm pretty clear there's 350 College Programs Division One programs in the country there every program has one at one head coach, three assistants, my point is, if you're not different, you're going to get lost, so I need to find some way to separate myself and brand myself in a way that separate myself from the pack and one way I did that was social media and I was kind of at the perfect time of it because I was in college as Twitter was coming about. So I understood it at a level, maybe an older person wouldn't. And I've just tried to take it I run ran with it and Bob Walsh who I worked for me and encouraged me to, hey, put something together, put a website together put a Twitter account together and that's kind of what the Twitter account I have so going now pick and pop dotnet was a way of one paying paying it forward and giving back to other coaches sharing with them what I knew. Second thing was, you know, promoting myself and branding myself as, as someone that you know knew the game at a high level and really studied it deeply, so there were two things at play there and I don't balk that there was certainly a self promotional aspect to it, and at times it's called, you know, I think it's rubbed people the wrong way but you know for every person I think I've rubbed the wrong way. I hope I've helped dozens and hundreds of coaches I'll hear from coaches and there's nothing that makes my day more than a high school coach saying hey, I love you, I love your drill that you do for finishing or hey I ran the site out play a golf from you we want to stay title with it there's nothing cooler than that my mind.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:16:47

Yeah I think it's I think it's tricky because I think in in sport in, you know, high especially higher level of sport I guess any level but you know I ran into this with, with the Lakers at times where, you know I really I really get goosebumps, by learning knowledge, teaching knowledge sharing knowledge I learned it better so there's that selfish aspect but um, you know, I really am appreciative of people that sift through the noise and helped me get really good information in the best ways and I love to soak that up so you know I, I ran into some similar stuff as you said rubbed the wrong people some people the wrong way at times and and you know sometimes some of those same people have come back around and said Man, I've taken a closer look at, you know, the stuff you're putting out there and you were putting out there when you were with the Lakers, and they just couldn't maybe see past like, you know, the idea that this felt like, you know, self promotion or whatever it was to them at the time but it wasn't. I think a lot of times the some of the older dogs in some of those positions just don't see the the necessity of it or the value of it and it's, you know, and so it's a, it's definitely a tricky thing but, you know, it's just, all I see when I see your content is just value, you know, responsible way of getting information out and, you know, of course, that's going to be tied to a person putting that out there if you want to call that self promotion but it's, it's got to have impacted a lot of people in a way. Now, let me ask you this. How would you, because a lot of young coaches are coming up in a place where that's all they've known right it's just social media is, you know that that sort of their, their version of encyclopedias or their version of, you know, calling up a coach and saying, Hey, can I come be a fly on the wall at your practice instead like maybe they don't need to because they can go see glimpses of stuff in social. Is there a way that you would recommend, how does a coach not become sort of lost in all the noise and intoxicated by all that information, how do they get to the root of the good stuff. You know,

Zak Boisvert  1:18:54

it's tough because I also think, early on, like, there is, you need to build a catalogue of knowledge. Before you like, and Doug Lomov talks about this in the book and I keep, keep referencing because I just think it's amazing book coach Scott teaching he talks about how knowledge is a prerequisite of decision making that you need to have this big catalog so yeah I get what you're saying that you don't want to, you know, you, you don't want to become like just all that, but like I also think like for a young guy, It's not the worst thing in the world that he immersed himself in a bunch of different things and be as are in your infancy. You should do that. Now, an older coach who running his system like to just accumulate new 20 new set plays like, ultimately you need to think about hey, how does it. How does that how does this fit in the context of what we do in our program or how can you maybe there's a tweak in there that you can say hey let me tweak one of my current set plays to accommodate this. So, ultimately, I think, later on in your stage, you should think about, like, Alright, how does this fit to us. We're really, you know, amass that knowledge, have some fun with it to win like, you know, if you're curious or that be relentlessly curious and if now I do think there's I think there's value in two things one, I think there's a value in watching someone practice and I think going to someone, Watson practice because practice happens every day, a set play happens five times a year in terms of that you run that set play or maybe you're on it. Three times a game, sorry that's called game that's 90 times a year. My point is, practice happens every single day so go watch some practice because you're going to get worn from that. You're also going to learn from being in the osmosis of the environment, you're also going to be motivated by the environment you're going to say, alright, this is what I want to do. Third, lastly, there is a networking aspect that can help you later in your career so you get a chance to meet down that can help you in your career so I would say one go Watson practice because there's nothing like that. And to get a chance to do it yourself and make a million mistakes along the way and I'm jealous of my buddies that have gotten to have gotten a chance to be head coaches, even at small levels because they'll even say to me oh man I'm so much better than I was, you know when I first started and because I made so many mistakes no one knew, and I just because I was my I was getting my, I was taking my chops at it and take mice hacks and I made a million mistakes but I got better as I went I said oh, that didn't work for me and I'm almost jealous that I was thinking the story of Stan van Gundy, he was the head coach at a young age at Castleton State University in the Northwest kingdom of Vermont, vt

Tim DiFrancesco  1:21:34

baby. Yep. Second, VT baby.

Zak Boisvert  1:21:38

And so he, he, he said, I was, he was there for three years, and he lost Colby Sawyer, he got swept by Colby Sawyer New Hampshire. All three years and also lost them in the tournament, two of those three years, so he said I was on a against the guy at Colby Sawyer, and he's like, I always think about, because he's like I made a million mistakes, no one knew no one was in the gym so I frankly could make on promise or No, no, but he's like I always think about the guy Colby Sawyer who was eight no against me, turning on the 2009 NBA Finals and seeing me coach and say, there what misguide do

Tim DiFrancesco  1:22:19

we see that guy who was at no against me, watching NBA Finals saying, Man this stuff must be easy. Oh man. But isn't that a lot of it right because, you know, we're like, you have the have you've, you know, talked about this ability to make mistakes, put yourself in a position where these you're trying you're testing you're you're you're learning it's trial and error, you know, I think some people get paralyzed by, you know fear of, you know failure or making a mistake and what would happen if that happened while you while they're thinking about that you're out there, let me, what's the worst that could happen right I

Zak Boisvert  1:22:53

mean, well no, and I would say and do it do it at any level into at any level and frankly, there's a lot of value to coaching, the age group below the one you coach because it forces you to think about things in first principle enforces you to simplify the game and really teach because there are things that you're taking for granted that you need to coach to lower level, and you need to you need to get more, you need to immerse yourself more and so I think there's a tremendous value in coaching the level below where you're at, so if you're a college coach goco Now it's illegal for us, you know, to deal with an NCAA rules, so it isn't necessarily perfect, but to go coach at a lower level, because it forces you to think about the big, big picture things.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:23:39

Now that's, that's such a, That's such low hanging fruit I mean it's it's the, you know, you could kind of put yourself in a position to be able to you know do that just, just, you know, at your fingertips.

Zak Boisvert  1:23:52

Like you go explain like squatting to weigh you know to, you know, to, you know, a younger age, right, you know, try to like, it forces you to think about Alright, am I doing that the right way am I explaining that am I using my using power phrases, you know the correct power phrases, it's a good concept to think about.

Phil White  1:24:09

It's kind of the great cook and he said he borrowed it from someone else, you guys probably know who where it's the See One, Do One, Teach One philosophy. I like that. Yep.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:24:20

Yeah, yeah, that's really good and it's funny you brought that up to Zach in terms of you know, teaching a, you know, 10 year old or a seven year old how to squat and and, you know, there's, again I'm blanking on the saying or the exact saying or where exactly it's from but it's like if you can teach a two year old can you teach your this message to a five year old, right, you know, could could, could you get this across to a, you know, an eighth grader in elementary school, or in you know in eighth grade and it's like, if you can I think just a lot of times you talked about it a little bit before is, there's just this tendency to overthink to overcomplicate to overdo. And, you know, when you look at and you listen to the great teachers, they're actually, they're actually observing, they're, they're, you know, not talking as much their accuser so direct their feedback is so precise because they've, the reason is, though, and this ties back to your original point is, they've made the mistake and done, they've overdone it they've overthink it, they've seen how it doesn't work, you know what, let me pare this down, let me, let me keep chiseling this down until this thing, You know fits just right but it's you've had a you've had a long day, I'm sure you've got to turn this thing around, bright, bright and early tomorrow.

Zak Boisvert  1:25:38

This was awesome got a chance to talk shop with guys and talk about my experiences and talk about coaching and talk about improving, you know, helping people that are, you know, we work with I mean, I could do this all night this is this, this is it's great insight and it's, it's fun it reinvigorates you and they you know they, because ultimately we're all on the same goal, even if we're coaching different things. That's right, we're all trying to you know make the people we work with better.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:26:07

That's it and, you know, I know I can speak for Phil on this we could have kept, we could keep going, we'll be ready for part two. This is just just just fascinating and we really appreciate it. I have one last question I leave everybody with, you could go spiritual on this you could go technical on this wherever you want to go with this, but this is the basketball strong podcast so what does it mean to you to be basketball strong.

Zak Boisvert  1:26:40

What does it mean to me to be basketball strong right I'll say that question just so give myself time to think about to do the next thing right. To make the next right play to do the next day you know Don Meyer as the NBA aspects action to do the neck to make an X ray play and frankly, that's why I think basketball is the best game there is because you don't have to wait for you don't have to wait for a huddle and then a snap. Basketball is this ebbing and flowing game constant movement, a and I think that's what makes the game so cool is there's always a next play, to it so I would say, you know basketball being basketball strongest making the next right play

Tim DiFrancesco  1:27:19

mad coach. Keep keeping curious keep making people around you better we're better today because of the time you took with us it means an awful lot and I've got a book full of notes here thanks to you and I'm gonna go back over those so thanks so much. We'll do a part two I promise

Zak Boisvert  1:27:37

this awesome recording stopped. I froze out I was doing it for drummer, that was awesome and I was I really was fun. I got some really cool places and I, you know, I'm excited to share that with people because frankly that got some places that I wasn't even anticipating so that's awesome.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:28:00

Well thank you know,

Zak Boisvert  1:28:01

I pick that up and let me know whatever I can do to help promote it, please let me know when it's uh, when it's released and whatever I can do to help promote it off. Off platforms, I'd love to share that. So that was really fun. I appreciate guys let me be part of it questions were awesome. You got somebody some cool places so am I actually real cool glad we talked about mental health because frankly, I wasn't anticipating talking about that but I'm ready to share it so it's man.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:28:28

It was, it was. This is, I just I mean, and Chris and, and I just talked a little bit ahead of time and obviously. So Phil are the, the person that is responsible for getting Zach on here and making this connection is Chris Lazar, he was my high school basketball coach and basically my, you know, biggest mentor in life and you know he and Zack have have intertwined over the years and, you know he he he just was kind of the I we've gone back and forth on emails but we've never really had a chance to like sit down and this is the thing I told Chris is like, you know, give me the Give me your top three or top five whatever it is I don't want a big number, I just want the people that you think I would sit here with a bucket of popcorn and be able to ask questions and just frickin soak it up and you came out of his, you know, brain first and I know why and I, I know. It was, it was, selfishly, I loved every second of it so thanks a lot, it's, it's beautiful, just from afar, seeing what you're doing and and this won't be the last time we

Zak Boisvert  1:29:40

appreciate guys Tim, let me know whatever we can do to promote this please let me know

Phil White  1:29:45

if there's anything we can do to serve you absolutely I'm saying,

Zak Boisvert  1:29:48

I appreciate it guys, thanks so much. Awesome. Great,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:29:51

thanks that you

Phil White  1:29:52

guys have a great night. Cheers guys. He's still there TV.