Kasey Jo Orvidas: How to Overcome Self-Limiting Beliefs, Fuel Basketball Performance with Nutrition, and Use Performance Psychology to Groove Positive Habits

Phil White  01:31

right Give. Give me one second TD I'm gonna hit record. And then we'll just trim the edge but um, yeah, Casey I'll just count us down, Timmy if you want to ask the first question after that Casey we do the intro and outro afterwards separately. Perfect. All right, here we go. So let's go record this recording in progress. There we go. All right, so 321. And we're off.

Tim DiFrancesco  01:58

Casey i right away to what you have on Instagram that's at coach Casey Joe. It says researching mindset before it was cool on it. Can you unpack that a bunch for me and get us started with that.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  02:16

Yeah, it's my favorite tagline Isn't it fun. I love that. I say that because I feel like in the last like couple years or so mindset has become very very popular on social media. I'm a health and fitness coach and I've been in the health and fitness space for a long time and it's been really interesting to see how many nutrition coaches and trainers of that nature. Now have also in their Instagram bio that they are mindset coaches, and the reason I say, I say that I've been researching mindset before it was cool on Instagram is because I have a PhD in this area, and have been researching these topics since 2015. When mindset was not as popular so I, it's, it's kind of like a running joke is, it's a little bit of like, I'm a little bit salty because everyone thinks that they're like mindset coaches now, but at the same time, I mostly am really excited that people are getting more interested in mindset and behavior change and less like seeing the importance of psychology. When it comes to health and fitness behaviors and to like beyond. So yeah, that goes for basketball. I love it all areas of life. So it's super important, I think, and I've always been sort of like bias in that way more people are becoming like more and more in tune I think to the importance of mindset but also means that a lot of people don't exactly talk about it in like the, I guess like scientifically correct way, or you know the evidence based way so we'll definitely get into that a little bit.

Tim DiFrancesco  03:45

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with being a little salty too and and and excited at the same time I think you're you said it just right, as you know, where are we, who are the people that are doing this in a way that is backed by, you know, backed by evidence backed by, you know, the aspect of really piling through and unpacking all of the, the research behind this because it's easy to say you know be tough be be greedy, you know all these people, you know, have to have a growth mindset, and, you know, jump on this bandwagon of Let Me coach people to do that by, by telling them that they should do that. But, you know there's more to it than that and then often when we get into the research it, you know, can help us to sift through the noise of what's, what's really, you know, what's really out there and you know what's really happening so you know I think that that's, you know what, what you're doing and what you've done, what what triggered it for you. What was, You know what I need to get into this and I want to I want to devote yourself to the research side of it, which can be painstaking.

Phil White  04:56

Mm hmm.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  04:57

Definitely yeah so I kind of like fell into the world of mindset, it was not something like I was definitely a person on the outside going like mindset is a science like what that sounds weird. So I in college, got really really into health and fitness for myself and really fell in love with strength training and got to like kind of feel how that showed up in other areas of my life and made me more dedicated and confident and empowered and like all of these amazing things started feeling my body properly it got to understand how that makes my life so much better. All of this stuff and I was also a psychology student at the time, and kind of started to think in the way of like okay, I feel this great by doing all these things like why are more people not doing it, you know, why do we have like an obesity epidemic on our hands. If you could feel this great and get all of these amazing benefits that come with you know, exercise and eating well and those sorts of things. So I think we all know, to some degree, that just like knowing you need to do this stuff and having knowledge about this stuff is not enough to actually get you to do the thing. So that's where my psychology brain was kind of like okay there's got to be something else going on here, so I essentially went to grad school to try to answer this question of like how do we get people to exercise and eat healthy, more often, without just you know, sending them like a list of reasons why they should do it. That's clearly not working. So, I kind of applied to a lot of different graduate school programs was interested in health psychology and experimental psychology and social psychology mostly was just finding a place where I could like call home to do some of this work and better understand how to get people to do more of these amazing behaviors, and came across the mindset lab at NC State where Dr. Jenny Burnett was doing a lot of work on mindset in a lot of different areas from like entrepreneurship to relationships, and also health fitness and obesity. So when I saw that she was doing some work on that and like how people would think about obesity and what that means for like their health behaviors, I was like, Ooh, this sounds really interesting. So I interviewed I fell in love with Raleigh I'm still here today in North Carolina, and spent my entire PhD career studying from a mindset perspective, health and fitness behaviors and how to get people to do more of that.

Phil White  07:16

Yeah I love on your website so you've got some really cool graphics on there and infographics in general but what I really love is the pyramid so students of this podcast might know John wooden's pyramid. Or maybe they know you know kind of his core value base type pyramid or maybe they know that we're familiar with or have heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and what I thought was really cool about yours is that while you do have daily movement and training slash exercise and nutrition and other things further up the pyramid, your, your base was similar to what he was values, but it was also mindset and kind of property where the intersection of mental health meets performance psychology so can you talk a little bit about why that's the foundation for the pyramid of health and wellness for you and in your practice and for your clients.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  08:07

Yeah, absolutely. People love pyramids, I don't know what it is about pyramids, but like I posted that pyramid multiple times and every time it takes off

Phil White  08:16

in northern England they might say something like, oh it's a good paradise for me.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  08:23

There you go, there you go, yeah, people love their beards, I don't know what I've actually learned recently too from a friend who's also a psychologist, and she informed me something that might be interesting to you guys. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs was actually not originally a pyramid some other guy determined that it would be a pyramid, like not mass.

Phil White  08:42

That's like with John Boyd with the OODA Loop, observe, orient, decide, and act. So he was a pioneering fighter pilot and then also helped design the F 16 and really changed how the Navy and the Air Force trained their fliers, but he didn't create the little circle model that you see it was, I think it originally it was like a quadrant or something so yeah some other games or or girl came along and kind of took it as their own and made it into this little circle, playing or there might pop psychology. But but yeah so check it, check out John Boyd and the OODA loop because yeah that that really changed how the military thinks and how they train particularly that pilots. Oh, interesting.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  09:21

Yeah,

Phil White  09:22

same thing. Yeah, it wasn't like this little neat circle we covered right. So yeah,

Kasey Jo Orvidas  09:29

yeah but anyway so my pyramid. Play man. So with my pyramid yes so I think, because that's often what I see a lot of the times and obviously what I'm arguing, all the time is that mindset really is like the foundation for all of these other like behaviors and exactly why I went to grad school and this question that I had and all these things and what I've learned is that a lot of times, all of the time, really is that your mindset kind of comes first, so you could have, you know, the most perfect nutrition plan like an excellent workout plan, you could you know be getting 10,000 a week working towards 10,000, steps a day or whatever it may be, but in the back of your head like if you have a fixed mindset about your ability to like actually make these changes in your life to become a fitter individual, whatever it may be, you're always going to continue to run into roadblocks and you may not even realize it's because of your mindset and that's like the hardest part about all of this is that most people with a fixed mindset don't realize that they have won, or that that's like what's actually holding them back. I mean if it makes sense at face value though right like if you don't believe you could do something. Are you really gonna want to like work towards it, like it doesn't make sense like, you're not gonna put effort towards something that in the end, you don't really think is doable for you so like what's the point, you know,

Phil White  10:50

you tie that back to gold so if somebody says, I want to make it to the NBA or they say, like Henry Guerrero we interviewed yesterday it was a great great interview, you do enjoy each other too. He said My goal was to play D one college or for someone, it may just be there on the freshmen team and maybe they want to make it to JV, you know, just from a basketball lens, working backwards from game day if you don't believe that you're capable, and if you don't know what you need to know can put those people around you and those systems in place and gather that knowledge of how that determination to do it, why even state that goal, you may as well just not bother.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  11:27

Exactly right. So if you're constantly on the bench and you want to be a starter, like you're in you're thinking in the back of your head like, I'm probably never going to get there, you know I'm not good enough, like there's no way like I will always be on the bench or I'll never like get my time, you're not going to want to put effort into like, get better, to improve to get to the point where you could actually potentially be a starter because what it does, if it doesn't make it common sense, like you're not gonna put effort into something that you don't think is actually like doable and capable for you. So that is something that I see all of the time and it's one of those things so I own a health and fitness coaching business like one on one type of scenario. And the first thing that I have all new clients do is watch like a 10 minute video from me, essentially walking through this like, Alright, you're here, you've invested, you're ready to go but like Do you actually think you can change, like Do you actually believe that you can do this. And if the answer is even, like, oh I don't know or I'm not sure, like we need to work on that because no matter what happens, no matter what we do, no matter how we help you if you're always thinking like oh I don't really know if I can do this, and you're not totally confident in yourself and your abilities, then you're not going to put the right amount of effort in. If you have some sort of like setback or, dare I say failure, you're going to see that as evidence for why you shouldn't be doing it that you're just not the type of person to do this but if you have a growth mindset and you do believe that ultimately you can't be successful so this is like the other side of the coin, having those failures and setbacks and things like that, you just see that as like okay, well what I was doing wasn't working. We just gotta like, pivot, try something else, you know go a different route, get some different resources talks to some different people because ultimately you do know you can be successful so it's just a matter of like doing something a little bit differently to get there. So yeah, that like mindset shift those differences are so huge, which is exactly why it's at the bottom of the pyramid.

Tim DiFrancesco  13:24

No, that's, that's so interesting and I think, you know what, It leads to a series of questions I have. So, number one, help me to understand what, what, is there a difference between a fixed mindset as you've talked about, you just, you truly are you truly don't believe that it can actually happen and you'd love for it to but it's, you know you have this, this sort of foundation of, you know disbelief of it and so what's the difference between that fixed mindset. And I think what's a natural thing for many people to have the periodical doubt creep in and say, Can I do that, like, I think, you know and and maybe you know and what's the difference there is, can those things happen separately, are they separate are they the same thing, how does that How would you describe that.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  14:18

Oh, that's a really good question because I'm so used to just answering that what's the difference between the growth and fixed mindset but breaking it down to like okay what's the difference between a fixed mindset and just some like general like self limiting beliefs, you know. So yeah absolutely i i love that you're asking that question and I thinking about it I want to, like, my first reaction is that there isn't a difference and a lot of times, you're just might be thinking, I don't have a fixed mindset I just doubt myself sometimes and I'm like, Ah, probably means you have a fixed. You know, no, that's my first reaction because a lot of times when people talk about, you know, other things like like victim mentality, for instance, you know, we're all or nothing thinking or self sabotage it's like all of this stuff is out here and I'm like, to me, I'm just like, that's just a fixed mindset, you know like hidden behind like

Tim DiFrancesco  15:09

on it. Yeah,

Phil White  15:11

I love you mentioned the self sabotage because that, that was one of your online courses that I thought, Man, I need to take that probably in a lot of basketball players, and non you know folks that aren't involved in the game so in the description for that you just mentioned another term that you use mental barriers so you know relating back to TDS question, what are some of those mental barriers or what, what my co author Dr. Jim Afro he probably no one know of the sport the fellow sports psychologist what he calls cognitive distortions, can you explain what cognitive distortions are thinking traps or or mental barriers are and in a course like that on your website or in person, what how might you start helping someone to go over around through or just remove some of those barriers or maybe reduce them a little bit.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  16:00

Mm hmm. Definitely. And I do think sometimes with like so, with cognitive distortions like there's a list of them and to be honest, I couldn't even like pull them out if I wanted to right now, my brain. But with that said, I'm going through so yeah that self sabotage workshop series that I have, it's a little bit of like a tongue twister. It's totally free, it's like a five day workshop where I like run through a lot of these different aspects of self sabotage from sort of like a scientific lens. So with that said some of the big ones that I see a lot and just like talked about a lot to like all or nothing thinking, for instance right it's like people think that they're like, and this happens a lot. It's like I'm either all in on something or I'm like, it's not worth it, you know, and so from like the health and fitness space. A lot of times what we see is like okay well I have one cookie so I might as well have a burger and have a glass of wine and like, do all these things that sort of like they actually call it in, in the literature, be, what the hell effect. So you say like what the hell I'll just like have whatever I'll just like have a cheat day I guess when in reality like we know logically it's like the one cookie probably won't do that much damage we just left it there. So, that often gets tied into having a fixed mindset because people again in the back of their mind if they think a little bit of like okay I don't really know if I can be successful, you know, I've never been successful in the past, nothing's ever worked for me I always fall off the wagon and whatever. So having a cookie is like, there's evidence that I can't do it and it's like might as well just like stay in sort of like my safe place and my identity of like not being able to do this stuff and essentially screw it up even further. So, that said there like identifying a little bit more of like where this fixed mindset can show up is really important and something that I teach all the time to whether any sort of like self sabotaging behaviors any sort of like fixed mindset behavior so you need to be aware of where they're coming from in the first place if you actually want to like work on them, you can't ultimately you can't change something that you don't know needs changing, you know like, it's literally not possible. So with that, becoming more aware of these things where you can kind of like maybe start to identify fixed mindset showing up in your life. A few things that I've already kind of pointed out, specifically with like setbacks right so how do you respond to setbacks in your life or failures obstacles barriers, all of that stuff, like, thinking especially if you mean for basketball players, listening, If you have some form of setback you feel like you're not progressing as quickly as you would like to whatever it may be, how do you respond to that, is

Tim DiFrancesco  18:24

it an injury,

Kasey Jo Orvidas  18:26

right an injury, a good one. I'm like Are you seeing it as like, God, this is just gonna like set me back forever like I'm never gonna be able to progress like this was like my chance and how I missed it, you know, there's something wrong with me like I can't do this I've never, I've never been able to I'm never going to get where I want to be those types of thoughts like that's all very much so like fixed mindset thinking, whereas having a growth mindset, you can see it as like, oh I have an injury so this may be an opportunity for me to like, I don't know, like maybe it's your leg that is injured, you could build up your upper body for a period of time and, or you could take the extra time that maybe you won't be at practice to like, read and listen and learn, you know,

Phil White  19:05

work on your mental game. Do the venue go get the mental reps in.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  19:09

Exactly, exactly. So trying to see it as like okay this isn't a reason for me to fail for good, it's like just an opportunity for me to do something different or iterate, or pivot you know until I try to take advantage of the situation. Another big one is the success of other people so maybe there's someone on your team who's really really good and always gets all of the accolades and the fame and all and all of the love and, like, how do you respond to those types of people, you know, on one hand you may be like super jealous. You may make like comments to some of your other friends, like, oh, he was just born that way he just has natural ability he doesn't have to work is hard, he just got lucky. All of those things often are indicative of a fixed mindset is it's assuming that this person was born with their traits and their abilities or they got lucky, and these are all things if they were born with it or they got lucky. Those are things that you can't have like those are things that you personally, did it like you weren't born with or you don't have the luck. So thinking in that capacity, it's like, you will never be able to be that person then because you don't have what they were quote unquote like bored with or got lucky with whereas on the flip side, seeing that person and going like okay this is so cool. He was where I was at one point, maybe I shouldn't ask him how he was able to get to where he got to maybe he has some tips or advice or maybe I could like get some training from him, and use that person as like inspiration is so much more of like the growth mindset sort of oriented thinking, you can just see me like weighing out those things like how much more productive, is a growth mindset and how much more likely are you to be successful with a growth mindset in that situation versus you know, just kind of being like oh well, they have something I don't so that sucks, like that's not going to get you anywhere so that's another big one and the last one is feedback, which we get, as players you know you're getting feedback all the time, whether it's from fellow fellow players or like your coaches, or whatever it may be, how you respond to that and I think a lot of times that can be hard, especially with coaches and I've been, I was a volleyball player for a really long time and had a few coaches that were pretty frickin harsh and how you respond to those that kind of feedback or constructive criticism, if you will, makes a big difference in like determining like where your mindset is at so if you get that feedback and you immediately feel like personally attacked or you get really defensive or you start to like justify oh well I ran the play that way because of like XYZ instead of like really hearing out the feedback that you're getting, like, that's very much so indicative of a fixed mindset so just assuming that like, you're still correct, to some degree or feeling like you need to like justify your actions. That's very fixed mindset oriented because it's essentially being like, okay, well what I did was good enough and like I don't want to learn more and do better because this is where I am, type of thing, where someone with a growth mindset is going to be so much more likely to take that feedback is like, okay, so you maybe for a second like you wince a little bit like, Oh that doesn't feel good but then you're like, Okay, open up. I will take in this feedback because ultimately it's going to make me better, and like this will allow me to improve and then next time I can like do it a little bit differently maybe and who knows maybe you are still right in that situation but still like giving yourself like that opportunity to learn is huge and like again, you can see very clearly how one way versus the other is going to be more productive.

Tim DiFrancesco  22:43

Yeah, you talk about use the word earlier resources you talk about it. You know that growth mindset person is seeing this, maybe take some a moment but they quickly turn and see it as an opportunity. You know as a resource or opportunity for them. I, you know, and I think my experience just, it just is like what you're talking about I'm just sort of seeing just so clearly the players that I've had a chance to work with, you know, at the highest level the Steve Nash's the Metta World Peace, formerly run our test, Pau Gasol is Coby, that that group, it was always sort of this idea of every thing that happened where everything that was around them was a potential opportunity or resource, and they just, they just, you know, saw it that way felt to me like naturally but my question to you is, is, is that it's not natural for everybody, but if it's not and you are sort of going through the inventory here as you're helping us to do, and saying, Boy, maybe, I thought it was good mindset but I might not be as much as I thought I was, can you practice this, can you work on this and and and in make progress toward a more, more of a growth mindset.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  23:56

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's something that we've seen and I've personally seen both like in the real world and in the lab and to be honest, it's a lot easier than people think. Like for instance we can do, easier, it's easy but it's also. So like for instance in the lab like when we're doing research, we can quite literally shift people's mindset just temporarily for the most part, just by having them read a phony news article, like that's all it takes like a lot of times what we would do is have people come in and they'll read an article that we essentially wrote up but using like legitimate like science that is out there, and because everything I did was from sort of like a health and fitness focus a lot of times it would be like, oh, like, something about like how genetics, make you the way you are and you can't change your body because of like how you were born, so that would be a very much like fixed mindset oriented message, versus, like, oh, new science has showed us that like you definitely can change your body and you can lose weight and you can't keep it off and things like that, so that would be more of a growth mindset oriented message, and so we'll essentially measure their mindset, both at the beginning. After reading some of this stuff, doing some other tasks to distract them and all that good stuff, and then measure it again at the end and there's a significant change based on where they were at the beginning, what they read, and now where they are. So, yes, that stuff scares me honestly because of like how much we are like consuming stuff on social media and things that aren't necessarily like evidence based and that sort of thing. Yeah, and I do feel like people are just so malleable and that way. But that said, it's necessarily it's, it's a good thing because it means you can't change right. So with that said, I think, in like kind of real world operations, it's one of those things that is not going to be as easy as like, Oh, I'm going to go read an article about how I can improve my skills and that means I'm gonna have a growth mindset going forward, but it really needs to be implemented over and over again and what we do know kind of like mini lesson and brain science is that your brain is constantly changing and making new connections and sort of like deleting old connections that you don't use anymore, this term as neural plasticity is kind of like the fancy term for this, I'm sure you guys have probably heard about it in some form or fashion. But we honestly like a lot of times in like mindset interventions where we're working to cultivate a growth mindset and someone teach you a little bit of this like brain science because it's really, really powerful to know that your brain can change and like shit, of course your basketball skills can change, you know, that's really important to like keep in mind but also ultimately just like keeping like keep working at it. Notice where your fixed mindset shows up and like in the moment it's okay if you still like you catch it, that's huge because then you can start to like reframe it be like, Okay, what's the better way to think about this, they're like, Oh, I do feel a little bit attacked by that feedback, but like, let me try to bring it in and see how it can make me better, you know, so just trying to work towards that and the more you do that, the stronger that connection in your brain will be and the easier it will become to do kind of going forward.

Tim DiFrancesco  27:02

Do the reps, right, just exactly doing the reps, and all that is gonna be perfect.

Phil White  27:07

Yeah what Jim says is like mental skills are not magic skills. Right, so they can have magical effects but you have to train them so I'm not the example you gave, like if you just if you're a basketball player and you've read a lot of articles about free throw shooting form, but you never practice shooting free throws that training your free throws. So I think the problem is we get into reading whether it's pop psychology like Malcolm Gladwell or not to derive it because he does a great job of kind of, you know, elevating and breeds the masses, or we listen to a ton of podcasts like this one right we read a lot of books or articles. And we think that that's mental skills training isn't, it's just reading about mental skills training so what might be a mental skill, other than recognize you just said recognizing those times when we're portraying or acting out of a fixed mindset and maybe nudging that toward growth what is another kind of low hanging fruit mental skill that people can actually start practicing daily pretty easily and maybe just three or four minutes a day.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  28:11

Yeah, I like that. And that's something I talk about all the time because I think growth mindset ends up being like, Oh, I have a growth mindset because I read self help books and I listened to the podcast and do all the things I'm like oh that's quite it. I even have like a personal development program for women to go through and I say you know this is signing up for this and being here, doesn't mean you have a growth mindset like just so we like, we need to continue to work on that like obviously I'm either there, but I like I go so far to say like you buying my programs, doesn't give you an out, essentially. So with that said, to kind of like, in, in addition to recognizing where your fixed mindset shows up already and working you know to start to reframe some of those thoughts. I think doing your best to like lean into challenges and this doesn't quite fit the bill of like three to four minutes every day but like it could, like taking the time to think about like where in your life are you maybe like resisting something because it feels maybe too difficult, it feels like something that you're not capable of doing. It's like there's too much effort that needs to be put forth like and like also just thinking to yourself, maybe at some point in your life, this could be just like a thought exercise some when in your life have you like decided not to do something or not go after something could be as simple as like, not asking a girl on a date or something like that because you were worried you would be rejected or you would fail or something of that nature, because that is ultimately a fixed mindset because you're not doing something because you're worried that you're not going to be able to be successful in doing it. So trying to like your hardest to like put yourself in situations where you're going to be challenged or where you would typically like fear failure or rejection and like thinking about that stuff can be a really great sort of like mental game to work through as well.

Phil White  29:55

I love that. And I love that you're going right to the heart of behavioral change from what the cellular level in the brain up and that's cool. Why are you so passionate, and I love how passionate you are about all this stuff but why are you so passionate about connecting the dots between the neuroscience and psychiatry, psychology, and specifically nutrition and movement and particularly in women what what is it that really gets you jazzed up about those connections and and how, you know, coming at it from European with your PhD in psychology can help to affect meaningful change and maybe give someone some self efficacy because they realize well shoot if I could do a pull up now I can conquer the world right or if I can change my eating habits for the better and see this beneficial change in my body composition well then I could do anything because I thought I'd never be able to do that so what is it that kind of gets you jazzed up about that and, and, specifically, again the connection between the mind and psychology and then eating habits and daily movement and exercise.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  30:55

Yeah, I think it's this is kind of like a two fold answer, I mean all my answers are like have many fold. But that's good. Typically I think I fell in love with this area so much because I saw it, just like show up in my life and like when I got started I know I kind of like told my story at the beginning with getting into health and fitness and seeing how it showed up in my life, and then later kind of getting into like the mindset world and reflecting back and going like, Oh my god. The reason I've been successful with my own health and fitness is because I always had a growth mindset. So like looking back I'm like I was so invested and, you know, again, resources and people and like asking questions and like spending so much time on books and podcasts and all these things to learn for myself and get better, because I knew if I just could like get all of the information and implement it like I could figure it out. Like I specifically remember being like a sophomore in college, this is probably like, 2011, and being in the gym, and like in the gym locker room and looking at myself like this was maybe like a year into like my fitness journey per se, and thinking like, Wow, I'm so excited to see where it will be in a year, like that. Those were the thoughts in my head and I vividly remember that situation and now I like look back I'm like man I did not like, year by year especially being female like you don't put on a lot of money. So it's like, I was so jazzed about a year and I'm like looking at this like a decade later like well I didn't progress as fast as I would have liked you, but we're still here and I'm still here, because I was thinking that way. So kind of like connecting those dots of like damn like I was, that's the reason why like I am still consistent with my health and fitness behaviors today. A decade later, is because that's how I was thinking about things, and so many people don't think that way. They're just like another day and I'm still not seeing progress instead of being like, where am I, where am I gonna be in a year like this is so awesome. So, that is definitely where I get super excited about it because I can see it in myself, I've seen it in my clients like when that clicks, It's the best thing ever because I'm like okay now I know like my, my work here is done. Like you're set up for success like going forward, even without me, because you're starting to like see things in this way and think this way. So, with that said to the other fold of this is that connection between like okay, like physiology or neuroscience like all these things like connecting that back to like mindset and psychology is so important to me because I think so many people I don't even think like I know because I see it all the time, that think that like mindset falls in the same like category is like manifestation and like positive vibes and like zodiac signs. When in reality, like, hi, I spent nearly five years researching this stuff like, it's a real science so this is where I get like, I get very like fired up about it because people don't realize that it is a real science and there's evidence based practice is behind it and it's not just like, think positively, like there's so much more to it. And because people see it as like this, softer science, or maybe not even like a real science because people just don't know and I don't blame them because I was that person to at one point, I actually saw recently literally yesterday in a Facebook group for precision nutrition, I don't know if you guys are familiar with that certification. So there's a coach's group and there's like 50,000 coaches in there, and someone asked like, Hey, I'm looking for a mindset certification which I have one and I teach one. Yeah, so I had a couple of my alumni members go through go and tag me and they're like oh do Casey's do Casey's whatever, and someone had commented and said, What do you mean by mindset certification mindset is just a buzzword for psychology and I'm like, No, it's not just a buzzword, like, but this is what people think so. I feel like very personally responsible to like bring evidence based practices to this world of mindset. And one way to really showcase that it is a science based thing is to connect it with things that people do see as like true science like neuroscience like physiology and things like that. So being able to say like okay neuroplasticity and growth mindset are like, kind of one in the same and they work together really kind of clicks for people to understand, like, oh wow, this actually is like legitimate science and I think

Tim DiFrancesco  35:17

you know, so So, dive in on that a little bit, you talked about earlier neuroplasticity, the idea that your brain can change, and Kim can you go further on that like it, it just in terms of like, it can actually through reps and repeating and kind of going through this stuff it's not only changing but almost like growing like in improving its plasticity is that is that in my mind, yeah

Kasey Jo Orvidas  35:45

yeah yeah so essentially like you have neurons in your brain right and they talk to each other they communicate to each other and that's how we're like having thoughts and like doing things that we do on a day to day basis, and those like essentially trying to figure out the best way to say this, there was like pieces of communication that are happening in your brain are always changing based on like different experiences things that you learn like if you're learning to ride a bike or you're learning a new skill in basketball like you're creating new connections, and oftentimes creating new brain cells as well and that's neurogenesis instead of neuroplasticity is the creation of new brain cells which is also possible and we didn't think that until like recently in science which is really really cool to things like physical activity can actually do that for you which is great. So yeah, essentially, if you stop doing something you're that kind of communication that's happening in your brain will die off over time, you're not using it, just like when you like learn a new language or a new skill or something like that if you stop doing it over time you're going to get worse and worse at it until like maybe you can't even do it anymore. That's exactly what's happening in your brain. So if you are in a place where you feel like you have a fixed mindset in some area of your life via basketball or otherwise, then you kind of working towards having these growth mindset thoughts and doing like putting yourself in situations that are challenging that typically you would maybe resist and doing stuff like that will feel uncomfortable at first because you're essentially going against that really like concrete pathway that you've had for so long, but you can start pouring concrete somewhere else to take some time to get there. And then the other one will become like the road less traveled, eventually.

Tim DiFrancesco  37:24

Yeah, I'm curious Casey when you talked about, you know, the idea that it sort of dawned on you as you were starting to get into the meat and potatoes of the research and understand what was behind what what a growth mindset even was you hadn't even sort of at one point in your life. It bet you had it but you didn't even know it. Where did you, you know, you, you had that and you cultivated it and you get credit for that, but we also, every one of us had help along the way and and, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, there's, there's a, there's a lot of coaches, there's a lot of parents, there's a lot of mentors of of young players and and young athletes listening and where did you, in your, you look back on your, your environment and what you were exposed to what do you think led to your than ability to take it and run with it.

38:17

Hmm, yeah that's

Kasey Jo Orvidas  38:18

a good question too. These are like questions that I never get asked this is good. So with that, that's actually interesting for me to think about because I don't think I had a lot of people in my real life surroundings that were super supportive and helpful in my like health and fitness journey. I mean I was like, your very traditional like college aged binge drinker, for a very good period until about it sophomore year in college. And so me going through freshman year and coming out of high school and things like that I had this like core group of friends who all partied all the time that's what they did. So as I started to like shift into this other space and become less interested in doing those things, we became very much so, the black sheep very quickly and felt like sort of alienated and like what things that I wanted to do like would sometimes like get looked down upon for and things like that are just like backhanded comments about things and whatever it may be, so I didn't have a lot of people in my real social circle like in my physical world, to help support that. That said, I think this is where social media can be so good and so helpful, because I found a lot of like friends online and when I actually moved to North Carolina from Minnesota, so I did my undergraduate degree at the University of Minnesota. I was so pumped because I was like this is my opportunity to find people who are like me, because I know they exist because of things like Instagram, so I see these people out there I know there are women who are super into swing trading and all this stuff it's like okay I'm leaving the state I'm gonna go find the people like this in North Carolina. I was relatively successful in doing so, But also at this time in my life, all of my best friends are from Instagram. i That sounds crazy, but it's because we do similar things and we like similar things and it's just almost like like online dating for friendships in some way. So, I definitely leaned into like the virtual world to find, like, I don't know if I would have had so much of a growth mindset if I didn't see other women doing the things that I wanted to do, it's like okay like this is like doable. This is like I can grasp this because I can see it, even though it's not in like my real like physical world. That said, I also spend, spent a lot of time like reading through forums and on bodybuilding.com And like, things like that so just kind of like reading other people's experiences and like learning from other people that way, was really how I was able to do it and like looking back, I'm like, where did I get this growth mindset from and I think a lot of it was just like seeing examples from essentially like role models of other people. I think

Phil White  40:52

you bring up a good point is like find you're trying to like find your people, and even McConaughey, you know, his book Greenlight is really interesting because even though the structure, some people might say oh it's all over the place, or there's a lot of fluff and now there's also some real gold to be mined from it and one of these things is like look, you know in your heart of hearts if your lifestyle is a plus or a minus and if it's a minus, there's probably some other people around you that have similar minuses so if you either want to, you know like shift in the car like go to take that from a minus to a neutral and then from a neutral to our class or like shift up shift basically or level up, you may have to go through some pain in terms I'm not saying cutting people off, I don't think that's what he's getting out of what you're saying. Maybe you should stop going to that particular part for a while or permanently maybe you should actively spend more time with that person, you started working out with it and you've only done it a couple of times but you're like pan like he or she really pushes me and encourages me whereas other training partners have made fun of how I can't lift as much as them or whatever, you know. So I think finding your tribe is, is a great thing and it may not be a whole tribe, maybe it's just that one person that one friend or that one mentor or coach or youth pastor or someone that's willing to pour into you and that you in return can then pour into other people so I love them. Oh, yeah, that's

Kasey Jo Orvidas  42:13

so important.

Tim DiFrancesco  42:14

No, it's so true and I, you know, So you talked to earlier and brought up the idea of, of, of goals. Casey I've seen you touch on the idea that you take a little bit of, you have a bone to pick with the traditional SMART goals approach. Can you, because you know we hear this a lot and a lot of young athletes get, sort of, you know, the message you need to set your goals, here's how you set a perfect goal, here's how you do that and this, this sort of method has been around for a very long time and maybe there's some, maybe there's some nuances to it that we haven't thought about.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  42:51

Yeah, definitely. So like my major bone to pick with smart goals and it is one of those things that I feel like it just become pretty like dogmatic over time it's like this is just the way we do things like this. I find anyone on the street and they know what smart goals are, right, everybody knows about this framework, so it's like it becomes this like, it's been around for so long so like that must be the way to do it and as we know very well that's usually not the case just because something like a long standing like theory does not necessarily mean that it's like, still correct. So with that said my major bone to pick with it. I like the s and the M, so specific and measurable I think that those things are important, especially when we're talking about health and fitness behaviors because so many people just say like, oh I want to get in shape, I want to get healthy, it's like that's not specific enough. And it's also not really super measurable in order for you to know like, again like kind of what I mentioned with awareness, right, like if you, you can't change what you don't know needs changing. So like in order to know like you have to be able to do something a little bit measurable to know like where you're going and where you're at and like if you need to do something differently, and yeah that specificity is is important too because otherwise, like, what do you, I want to get healthier like what does that mean it means that so many different things for so many different people.

Tim DiFrancesco  44:05

And then, I'm sorry, so that could be, if I'm a shooting guard and in my age group in my league. The, the top shooters are shooting, you know 42% For 38 to 42% from the three point line, you're at 35 You're at 32, your goal being specific and measurable being able to kind of say look I'm, I'm, I'm aiming for that 40% mark. I know what that is but also knowing what you shoot right now, and being able to go from that is that is that sort of a fair starting point there okay,

Kasey Jo Orvidas  44:43

absolutely versus like you know what a lot of people may do I just want to be a better shooter. I want to be better at basketball.

Tim DiFrancesco  44:48

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah,

Kasey Jo Orvidas  44:51

exactly. And that means either way it could be like oh I want to be a better shooter, it's like okay but like what exactly you know, getting a more specific and understanding where you come from and I think with the measurable piece a lot of people miss it because they don't want to reflect on like where they are now, because they're not happy with it so it's like uncomfortable but like something I say all the time is that discomfort breeds growth and that like goes in so so so many directions here too. And then, so that's S and M, and then a is where I started to have some issues. So, A is attainable. And with that, I think so many people do have a fixed mindset. A lot of times that they don't realize. So what may be attainable for someone with a fixed mindset, maybe holding themselves back, so it's not necessarily that it's like, always a bad thing and like something I should preface all this to is that I don't think if you use a SMART goal framework that you're gonna fail, like that's not Yeah. Am I right, that there's like some, something that needs to be addressed. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, and we know this too. I when I specifically talk about this I'm often talking about like weight loss goals and things like that. And we know from research that having like an unrealistic goal for weight loss is not a great indicator of whether or not you're going to be able to maintain like your weight loss long term. So, I'm over here like okay so then like maybe it's okay if you set something that's a little bit unrealistic or like shoot for the stars that sort of thing. Like do you like we can use examples of like, yeah, Kobe Bryant, or Michael Jordan leave think that they were always setting super attainable goals for themselves like oh yeah I absolutely can do this thing like no, they were probably setting some pretty lofty goals and like know that there's a chance that he won't achieve them. And that was part of the reason why they were so successful, right. And then, same goes for realistic like attainable and real number one. Those are pretty much the same thing to you, they're very redundant attainable and realistic. So same thing it's like if you're only setting, super realistic and attainable goals like, Are you are you holding yourself back because a lot of times I think we are so just like being careful and cognizant of that. On that side too. If you know you're running into like walls, over and over again, you feel like you're not getting anywhere, maybe building some momentum with something that feels really attainable and realistic and being able to hit those is a good thing, because it'll get you build some competence build some of that self efficacy, things like that, but like long term just always setting things that you're comfortable with isn't going to really help you grow. And then the last one is time based and again from sort of like a health and fitness perspective, you don't always know how things are going to go you don't always know, I mean this would be great for like basketball references to, you don't know, you know, like, what life is gonna throw you you might get injured, things like that. So setting some sort of like okay within six months, I'm going to improve like my shooting, like you can't necessarily

Phil White  47:45

six or nine inches on my vertical jump or 12 inches on a vertical jump and this 12 week program which is one shot and in quotes coaches are selling right TD.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  47:58

Right exactly And I think, more often than not like time based stuff is almost like a marketing tactic you know like, oh, like lose weight in 30 days like all of that kind of bullshit. So same thing, like, okay 12 weeks to like increase your vertical by 12 inches. So a lot of times like we don't know what is going to happen and we have to in it kind of puts it into a position where you can't plan for like challenges and barriers or things to come up or things like that because you're just so focused on like getting somewhere in that specific amount of time. So I like to think of it instead of like time based more or less like timely so again like reflecting back on like where you are currently and where you want to go and reverse engineering from there. And I think sometimes you know there's a time and a place to have like a specific like okay yeah sure if you're like, there's a championship date deadline for you to like get better at something. Yes, of course that's a goal with like a very clear like time based on like parts, but outside of that I think when it's just like, kind of thing general things that we're trying to improve on and get better at and things of that nature. It's not exactly super productive.

Tim DiFrancesco  49:05

I love it I love it I mean just absolutely re engineering kind of and just making these little nuances to something that's, that's like you said, it's still it's still nice to have a framework there but let's just think about what could be the best, you know, how could we squeeze a little more juice out of that. That's fantastic. I know we're on the clock here a little bit and I want to start to head towards the tail end of things, but um, in terms of, you talked about discomfort breeds growth. Is that something that you put into your daily practice of things, how do you do that and, and, you know, how do you push yourself to discomfort at times in a positive way.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  49:50

Oh man, being a business owner, everything,

Tim DiFrancesco  49:53

doesn't it just doesn't.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  49:55

It just doesn't for you I really think that yeah entrepreneurship is like the best like mindset challenge ever, there's always something new that you need to like iterate on or like put yourself into an area that may be new or different and like truly that's like successful entrepreneurs are doing the things that are different that other people haven't done before. And like doing like things a little bit maybe unconventional and that sort of thing and that requires you to get uncomfortable, all the frickin time. For instance, I'm working on writing a book right now, not super comfortable and not something I've ever done before. Right, a lot of time, a lot of effort, not a lot of like return on investment. So I like to understand that I need to be uncomfortable with, like, sitting down and taking yet like maybe an hour a day to like just sit and write something that isn't a direct like ROI. And that's really uncomfortable for me when I know I could be pumping out content creating another program like doing things that are like moneymakers in my business, so Oh yeah, all of the time I think being a business owner, it pushes you, for sure. And then that's why I also really love, strength training and that's something I still like keep in my life all the time because it is like pushing it like it is quite literally, uncomfortable to like get under like a 200 pounds like bar on your back. So, yeah, definitely pushes you as well.

Tim DiFrancesco  51:09

Yes, that's outstanding. And in terms of, you know, being able to put yourself in a position where, you know, you get into that that discomfort, it can be very calculated it can be in a way that you know if you're a big man, for instance, a big, a bigger player, you know, male or female on on the basketball court and you know it's, you're seeing other people at your size and your position be able to handle the ball a little bit more but that hasn't been what you worked on right that's, that's one of those things. So if I'm just, if I'm listening, Dr. Casey Joe is like got me thinking like, man, do I have a growth mindset in my fixed, where am I at, where can I start what's, what's my like, what's the starter, you know, kind of cue or your tip from you that says, Okay, start with this and then you can go from there.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  51:59

Mm hmm. Yeah absolutely, um, follow me on Instagram, no I'm just kidding.

Tim DiFrancesco  52:04

But I do put out a lot of coins, see Joe,

Kasey Jo Orvidas  52:07

there you go I put out a lot of free content related to this stuff I mentioned that free. Okay, okay, with okay that three five day self sabotage workshop is great too. I teach a lot of like science and also like specific like assignments and things that you can kind of enter into your life as well, but also just like ultimately pay more attention. Pay more attention, be more aware. Notice where you have a fixed mindset notice where you have a growth mindset and maybe you can translate those skills over to like the fixed mindset world and other areas of your life. Yeah, I just think we run on autopilot so frequently I'm definitely like in this boat, a lot of the time to where we just like, don't take a second and this, I mean we can dive into like mindfulness and being more present and things like that, but that all kind of like comes together and that was actually part of the, the pyramid foundation too is like being more mindful and just more aware of things because, yeah, you can't improve what you don't need improving and all of that good stuff so that's kind of like a key takeaway for sure and I know it sounds maybe a little bit like woowoo or abstract or like that's not really gonna work but like telling ya, that's the stuff.

Tim DiFrancesco  53:11

That's how it is you got to do, you got to do the wraps and it's, it's, sometimes it's the simple stuff done really well over and over again. Right, absolutely. I, we, we love this over to everyone on the show, and you can go anywhere you want with it you can go really researchy tactical you could go really spiritual, emotional, anything in between all the above, but what does it mean to be basketball strong this is the basketball strong podcast so what's your what's your take.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  53:43

Hmm, I would have to say, being willing to lean into challenges and I know I kind of mentioned this before, but I think especially in sports, basketball or volleyball or whatever it may be, I think being willing to like put yourself in a position, I guess, to feel uncomfortable to feel challenged to like go against, like the resistance and not always take the path of least resistance, like that would be like What is, to me, I just like the definition of almost like strong, right, is that like you're going to put yourself in those positions, knowing that like growth may be on the other side of it but you, you might not know that you'll actually get that out of it but regardless if you fail, or you are successful, you're still gonna learn something from it. So being willing to put yourself in those situations and regardless of the outcome.

Tim DiFrancesco  54:31

I love that. I love that. Beautiful. So, okay, we talked about it at coach, Casey KSEY, Joe. J Oh, that's on Instagram, where else where else can we learn from you.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  54:45

Yeah, yeah, so if you are interested in learning more about my programs any of the free resources I mentioned you can find all of those on my website at KJ Oh coaching.com

Tim DiFrancesco  54:56

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. This was incredible and I think we're all a little bit more basketball strong because of you today so thank you very much for that.

Kasey Jo Orvidas  55:07

Excellent, thanks so much guys. Have a good night,

Phil White  55:09

appreciate you. Thank you. Bye for now recording stopped. Nice one, brother.

Tim DiFrancesco  55:19

Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir. All right.

Phil White  55:24

That was awesome. I'm there. There's no egos here so there are times like that but I'm just going to take it back seat, like I'll let you ask 80% of the questions and there were probably times when, if it's one of my people you know find out why you don't know you'll do the same so I knew we're on a time crunch, so that's why I didn't say a whole lot.

Tim DiFrancesco  55:42

Why no no I got to flow.

Phil White  55:46

The world here.

Tim DiFrancesco  55:48

Well, you know she'd be a good one to get back again because you know I think one of the things I didn't get to is like, what's the difference between mindset and mindfulness, how, where are the overlaps what's the difference.

Phil White  56:01

He has a passion for working with female athletes and I'm guessing. Just because she is female. So, you know like these young girls like she talks about the plus side of social media, well there's obviously a dark side. So, what does she see in terms of girls for, you know, maybe female basketball players or just women in general falling into the comparison trap, body image issues disordered eating, and from a mindset perspective, how does she help them start to deal with that a thinking level so then they can maybe change their perspective so they can improve their behavior or the way they think about themselves. Let's say there's so much there that she could rock back into part two.

Tim DiFrancesco  56:39

Totally. I love it. She was fun she was fun.

Phil White  56:42

Oh, Angie, love, not great, I love

Tim DiFrancesco  56:46

that that flowed nicely. Um, let me see here I'm gonna, I'm not going anywhere. I'm just looking at what do we have any more. Do we have any more. This week, I don't know. Okay, okay,

Phil White  56:57

okay. So you're hunting down on a test I'm hunting

Tim DiFrancesco  57:05

verslo. And then those three that I logged over yesterday

Phil White  57:09

with those I'm going to leave it for a couple of days and see if they get back and if they don't, I'll chime in and say, hey guys. What we need is for time options. Can you give him and then I'll send back a zoom invite so usually with those I like to give them three or four days just to respond but if they

Tim DiFrancesco  57:25

go, yeah, yeah, perfect.

Phil White  57:29

And then I had a good chat with Jared and just based on the scope and scale we talked about I sent over that quote yesterday, And as I told him like that is not set in stone is a pretty significant discount on what I would charge anyone else but it's not set in stone. So the bottom line is you need to go, go boldly forth with this yeah scope and scale. So that's kind of where I'm roughly where I need to be at, you have a budget, you know, needs or, you know limits on your end, so you just show you know what what what will work based on that guideline, and then let's just roll with it.

Tim DiFrancesco  58:05

Okay. That's amazing. I'm really excited about it and we'll just keep logging them in here and then probably our next, let's see we're, we're due for not this coming Monday but the following Monday probably that call that you and I have. I'm gonna have you. I think if we just go with the agenda being to you, I'd love it if you could sort of help me to do those intros outros, you know, kind of, yeah. And so

Phil White  58:37

any of the ones that I've done for mentors as well, like if you look up a mentor, okay, okay, okay, any of the most recent episodes, I did the intro cuz all the acquisition misery. So, I mean it's literally just like Hello and welcome back to the bla bla bla podcast, as you can tell, I am not your host Mac one but I'm your co host Phil White Max unavailable this week So joining me is my good friend Tim de Francesco. Today we're gonna talk a little bit about, blah blah blah blah blah. Hope you enjoyed the show. Let's roll back right you know so it's, it's literally two minutes in and then on the other end super quick outro so it's not composite, it's not fancy. And it's basically that script I sent you for even shorter yeah yeah

Tim DiFrancesco  59:24

yeah exactly. Yeah, no, no, no, that'd be perfect. Okay. That'd be great. Now, I'm loving it. We're.

Phil White  59:32

If you use a Mac, I would say use GarageBand which comes installed on every Mac, and if you use a PC use Audacity, both programs, both super simple. At any point, or if you just want me to do it, always, I can do it because I am in the mode anyway. And it's, oh, sure,

Tim DiFrancesco  59:51

sure. No, no I don't I don't I just know that'll be good that'd be, that'd be excellent I'll take probably some swipes at it before we talk on that Monday and then maybe, you know, we can just kind of debrief on

Phil White  1:00:03

people make with that they tried to stay on more formal than they are. So, particularly for the intro bring the usual Tim enthusiasm and energy please and don't try to sound like a radio announcer because it won't, it won't sound like you, particularly the people who know you,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:00:19

perfect. Nope, that's a good break. That's it, baby. Bring me. Sounds good.

Phil White  1:00:28

Sorry if you want to have a lot with gentlemen I sent you last night and just get back to me when you have a chance to talk then. But whatever it is man we'll roll with it, That was just a and I told him, that's a guideline, it's not a well it's this price or you can either off, you know,

Tim DiFrancesco  1:00:42

on it baby, on it, right, this will get this thing done I love,

Phil White  1:00:47

you know like with our test with Bush learn with others when it's taxed again just take that and then say, Alright I'm gonna introduce to my co hosts bill. As I said, Please suggest in the email four or five date and time, and then he'll talk to me and we'll pick we'll send you a zoom invite for one of those. So, that's the way to do it if it's a phone call an in person meeting or a text I love it. Thank you. What do I need from them is four or five date and time options and then I'll send that evening by.

Tim DiFrancesco  1:01:16

That's it, that's it. Awesome. Thank you brother as well. Alright. Have a good day. Bye bye.