(Ep001) Chris Kaman Gets Candid About his Mental Health Challenges, Why Old-School Centers Still Have a Place in Pro Basketball, and the Glory of 3-on-3 Tournaments
Tim DiFrancesco 0:16
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the basketball strong Podcast. I'm Tim DeFrancesco. And I'm here with my co host, Phil white. This podcast is not just for basketball junkies, it's for anyone who loves to hear the human stories behind great people. Our mission is to bring experts, legends, and hidden gems from within and surrounding the game to one place, so we can share their stories and insight with you. You'll hear the stories behind the game, including trials and tribulations, setbacks, wins, losses and lessons. Before we jump into this episode, Phil, and I need your help. Take a moment to smash that follow and subscribe button and then go leave us a review. The follow and subscribe button is that little plus sign on the top right if you're listening on Apple podcasts, and that's what's going to help us to reach as many people as possible and share with you how we can all be living a basketball strong life. That is what Phil and I are here to do. So we appreciate it. And thank you in advance. This isn't just a podcast, it's a community. And it's a movement. And we want it to feel that way. So be sure to visit us at www dot basketball strong podcast.com. And you can also email us directly at Tim. That's ti m at basketball strong podcast.com. We want to hear from you. So take us up on that. If you subscribe, give us a review and drop us an email. We'll send you a basketball strong t shirt and then automatically enter you in our rolling premium prize giveaway contest. And I'm telling you you won't want to miss that. Now, let's go get basketball strong.
Our guest today is former NBA All Star Chris Kaman. Chris battled Shaq, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and many more on a nightly basis during his time in the NBA. Chris was drafted number six by the LA Clippers in 2003 2003 Was that draft that was one of the most talent Laden in NBA history. It included LeBron D Wade, Chris Bosh, Carmelo and more. Chris spent time with the Clippers Hornets, MAVs Lakers and trailblazers. During his time with the Lakers, was when I had the good fortune to develop a friendship with Chris that I cherish. Chris provided us with enough conversation, Insight lessons and gems for two episodes. This is part one. In his overall conversation with us between part one and two, Chris talks about his working class upbringing, what it took to excel in the NBA for so long, what he learned from Kobe during his time with the Lakers, he even gets into his own mental health challenges, and how he now successfully stays mentally healthy and strong. And also points out why old school centers still have a place in the NBA, among many, many other bits of insight, information and stories that he's had along his journey. Let's get into the conversation. Chris, I'm curious when you first realized when that you could get paid to play this game?
Chris Kaman 3:47
Yeah, I mean, when I was little always, you know, I feel like I always had that dream like everybody does. Oh, I want to play in the NBA. I want to play the NBA but you know, when I was little was the late 80s and early 90s. And there wasn't this draw that there is now by these young crowd of kids wanting to play in the NBA, but it was just you know, my favorite guy was Michael Jordan. When I was younger, even though being from Michigan everything's the Detroit Pistons fan the bad boys, I was always rooting for the bowls in Jordan, and you know, just childhood cheer or whatever kind of for the basketball realm. And so I always just had that dream and just played for fun in the backyard, my brother in the parks and wherever I could and I lived in a tough area, urban area. And so one of the parks it was good competition, and I got beat a lot and that helped you know, improve on my game, but I think probably my sophomore year college was when I you know, like I remember after one of the games I went over to the not the scores table but the other side was where the media sits at college. And there was like five NBA teams and they had their you know, they put that they put the piece of paper down it says Toronto Raptors in such and such was the scouts name right? And I looked I'm like what the heck In my mind, in my idiotic mind, I'm like, What the heck are the Toronto Raptors doing here? You know, like, why would they be here? They were there to watch me play, you know? And, and then I was like, Oh, that's weird. And so then my junior year and I just that was kind of what I first thought and then man, I was like, Man, I could probably make some money. And then my job was where I really realized was my junior year we went into Michigan, at the University of Michigan, and we beat them a mid major and a high major, you know, and for Michigan, everybody's Michigan, Michigan State, it's a big rivalry. Obviously, nobody talks about Central Michigan and Western Michigan Reimer that's not talked about. That's the rivalry from where I was at to college. And so, you know, my, my, my junior year, my third year of school, we played Michigan in Michigan, we beat him I had 30 and 21. And like, five blocks, and after the game, you know, it's big news when a mid major beats a high major, right?
Tim DiFrancesco 5:54
Yeah. Who was on that Michigan team?
Chris Kaman 5:57
Lavell Blanchard, not not a ton of great. I don't think there was any NBA players. But it wasn't even so much about that. I mean, we were a mid major. We weren't supposed right. Those are the games. They pay you to come play them and you get paid the heavy money, and then you're supposed to lose. I mean, we went in there and we beat them. And so after the game, there's a press conference. That was when Tommy Amaker was the coach from Duke. Oh, yeah. They weren't good. You know, they were under the restrictions from the the NCAA a the Fab Five violations. So they weren't tournaments. No one would really cared about him at that point. And it was kind of a, you know, the early days of Tommy Haymaker where he was trying to like, kind of get things turned around. He didn't say never happened. But so anyways, after the game, we went to the press conference, and I sat there and it was the Michigan border, you know, behind me, and, and I remember, someone asked a question, like, are you gonna leave after this year? I'm like, What do you mean? Am I gonna leave? Like, where would I go? I got no year to play. You know, what
Unknown Speaker 6:53
have they found out about you? Like, come on?
Chris Kaman 6:56
Yeah, I didn't know. Because I was I came from like a small Christian School in high school. And then I went to college and a small farming town, as well. I wasn't like known. I didn't play AAU. I barely did any cancers. I was just a three on three. No, I played these three and three tournaments on the streets all the time. That was only I do street ball. I love street ball. And I always like that was kind of like the physical contact the rough part of it. So anyways, so that game afterwards that you gotta leave it in my head. I'm like, What is he talking about? Like, I couldn't think in my head, well, about six games. And I said, I you know, I don't know. I don't know, I just can't remember I kind of brushed it off. And then I remember like six or seven games went by and I kept seeing those names at the scores tables. And I didn't know what they were doing. I was just playing I love hoops. I just love I was a gym rat, I just, I'd go at night and shoot, I go in the mornings, I'll just love hoops. And so I had a passion just for just for the basketball, just shooting just getting better and to be able to do things better. And so like six or seven games go by and then my coach calls me into his office. And so my coach, his name is Jay Smith. He's an as he works with Juwan Howard in Michigan now, he used to coach Juwan Howard, as an assistant under Steve Fisher during the Fab Five era. And somehow he ended up being my coach. He was really really good with big guys. If you want your kid to be like, know the footwork and the old school style of big banks, the banks mascot centers, you go see this guy. He's studied under some of the best basketball minds for big guys. He's just exceptional at footwork and positioning and all that. And so I didn't know any of this stuff. I just went to college because it was close. They offered me a scholarship. We didn't have no money. My parents made $37,000 A year combined. You know, my dad worked in physical labor job. It wasn't like we had this beautiful house. Yeah. So you know, I mean, growing up, we struggled, we, my mom worked three jobs, my dad would work his job. And then he would work to overtime whenever he could extra hours, and just try to make it meet. You know, my dad was a good provider, but he didn't understand the fatherhood all the way. So he just worked like $1 all the time. So he wasn't ever around as much till I got older. So anyways, so my coach backstory, I reason why I put that together is because that's how I ended up with my agent. So my coach calls me in his office about six or seven games later, Jay doesn't he's like Chris. He's like, I'm just gonna tell you this. I wouldn't normally do this during the middle of season because I want you to stay focused, but I'm getting like 10 to 15 different calls every every month from agents and agencies that want to meet with you and want to talk to me. And he's like, I'm just gonna tell you right now, I don't know any of these guys except one. Rob polenka, who's now the Lakers general manager who Tim is very familiar with, because he was Kobe's agent as well. And so my coach was like, I know this one guy, Rob. He's a good guy, smart guy. And we met with all these people and ended up I ended up picking Rob, you know, after the season was over, I picked Rob so that I didn't really have a choice but not to come back. They tried to get me to stay there. They did a lot of different things to try to get me to stay some legal some not. And Uh, I ended up just leaving, you know, for my situation, like I told you about my parents. We didn't, we didn't have much so, and originally I went to college to try to play basketball. That's why I went that was my first thought. My second thought was school is a little, although I did do well in school, you know, their characteristics. They, you know, they use GPAs to figure it out, but I did do well in terms of a GPA. I didn't like it, you know. So it was for me, it was about basketball, and everybody goes to college to get a job to make a bunch of money. And I was like, Well, I can do this three years. I go four or five, when I can do in three. And so I left. I was the sixth pick in the 2003 2004 NBA Draft LeBron James draft, I've realized to call it I was a sixth pick. And right then I signed a $12 million contract. So I go from $37,000 a year to average about two and a half $3 million a year.
Phil White 10:52
So wow, that's amazing. Take us back. Because my dad is a stonemason, right by trade. And, you know, when I was in high school would be he took a job taxi driving, as well as running a full time stonemasons business, and you know, to two of his high school friends, and he made sure they got paid before he did. And then a couple a couple other guys part time later cutters and such. And any clean toilets at a at a Subaru dealership on the weekend as well. And just the nicest guy in the world got taken advantage of a lot by people because he'd always give people a discount and just work I didn't see him either very much because he worked his ass off and somehow subsisted every day on like a big old sandwich, a piece of cake and an apple for like 18 hour days, you know, just which is why he's cut up like a boxer to this day, right like pound for pound. It's just like the strongest man in the world. But yes, we are, you know, similar in I think one year yeah, he paid himself like 26,000 pounds. So basically right where you're talking about, worked his ass off. I never saw him growing up. But he provided and he worked his tail off for very little return to talk us through a little bit. You know, your dad's work ethic. Growing up in the 80s TD and I just passed the Big Four Oh, this year so we're all around the same age just take us inside the household. Give us him?
Tim DiFrancesco 12:22
Yeah, I think so. I gotta go back on the on the map. But I think so.
Chris Kaman 12:27
The the genius I'm about to be putting in April. It's it's interesting. My wife's 41 I always give her our takes on 39. Still, we got so crazy. Um, no, you know, growing up. My dad always was a manual laborer. He always worked with his hands. And part of that is my dad's education stems. It stops in seventh grade.
Unknown Speaker 12:49
My dad left 15 Yeah, yeah,
Chris Kaman 12:53
my dad will left and his dad was in the World War Two and got real messed up mentally. Still, shell shocked the whole deal. They had to put them in a state hospital. So my dad was raised by his grandfather, for all intensive purposes. And so he just kind of rebelled and did what he wanted. And he quit school in seventh grade, he went to work alone lumber out of a boxcar. That's how he made his living from like, sixth grade till he was like, almost 19 years old. He unloaded lumber out of boxcar by hand. You know, it took a group of men that were pretty tough and strong to be able to do that. And I think that's kind of where it started for him. And then, you know, I think he didn't have a good education. He wasn't very smart. You know, he didn't even know how to read or write for the longest time. And, you know, he told me the story that one day, he was in his office, and he was just praying. And he said, the next day, he picked up his Bible, and he was able to read it, which is pretty crazy. You know, a lot of people that kind of stuff these days, or don't believe that kind of stuff. But like, to me, it's just a special situation from from my situation, because I watched my dad struggle with the book smarts and the things that, you know, struggling at work, not be able to move up in the ranks because he couldn't take tests because he couldn't read. And then one day, it all just kind of came to him. I mean, he wasn't going to school. Trust me, he wasn't that kind of guy wasn't learning that night, my mom wasn't helping him. And so my mom was kind of the backbone of our family and with the finances and taking care of taking care of things anyways. And so my dad always had to work those manual labor jobs because he wasn't smart enough on a book smart scale, or like a schooling engineering or anything like that. So he always had to work those manual labor jobs. So he, he worked 27 years for the same place manual labor. I watched him beat his body into the ground for years and years and years. I never never understood like, you know, he's dead. I passed like five or six years ago, almost six years in July, I'll be six years, but he was 61 had a heart attack. So you got to ask me that later. Now that it's a touchy thing, but it just saved me the time
had a heart attack away from home anyways, and he was I never understood why he did that. You know, I never said Why. Why is this guy what is you know, what does it mean to be so are your kid and you just run out? around having fun, you're not sore, you're not tired, you know. And so watching him go through that. And then now being a dad. And now, you know, I want to, I like to work physically, rather than be in the hole digging with a shovel, I'd rather you know, I'd rather be outside. So that's generally what I do I, I like to work outside, whether I'm cutting trees, or whenever I'm doing anything, it's all jack of all. And so I prefer that it makes me feel whole, I guess or complete to be able to, like, be tired at the end of my day, because I've put in a good day. And I think that's what drew me to basketball in the NBA too, because there's never, there's never a stopping point. Really, if you see some of these guys's work ethics, they just keep going like Kobe, Kobe, you know, having spent a lot of time with him in on the weight room side and the training side, the guy who's an animal, and there's a lot of other guys like that. But there's some guys that are real special like that, you know, like Kevin Durant, there's a bunch of guys that just sit there their whole lives, they just commit themselves to basketball. So I think that my dad's always pushing to do the manual labor and the physical work makes you feel good and complete by the end of the day. But also for me, I think it's like a, I've picked up on that. Now in my life and having played in the NBA for as long as I did it, you don't just come from high school to college, and get an MBA and you're good. It's not how it works. You know, people have this misconception, oh, he's gonna be a heck of an NBA player. And then they get to know they can't figure out why he isn't a heck of an NBA player. Because a lot of times those guys are riding that wave still, he's super talented. And he's never hard, you know, there's about I would, you know, I've noticed heard some stories. And I know some guys, I'm not gonna say any names, but there's some guys in the NBA now that are unbelievable athletes, unbelievable skills, but they don't work an hour a day on their game. And you I'm not gonna say again, and you never you can watch them play currently. And you can see why that is they can't make free throws, they can't hit a jump shot. I mean, it's just just the way the game is now you got to work on your game, you got to have a little more than just skill. And so you see a lot of them guys who go from college, high school, to college, to the pros, and everything's, they're gonna be so good, because you're a good in college, well, they were just living on their skills. And so at that point, it takes a special person to put that time and effort in. And that's those players that are really good and really excel above the rest, because they're also talented, but they also are willing to have that driving force of that hard work and put that time in. And so for me, Look, I'm not an ignorant in fact, I'm a stiff White Senator that's on athletic when I come out of college. You know, that's how I looked at myself, I was more athletic than I give myself credit for. But I could run really fast. And I was pretty good at the distance stuff. And I stayed pretty consistent with my stamina. But I'm not ignorant to the fact that I was quite stiff, and I had to make I had to carve out like a little niche, you know, for what I was good at. And it took me a few years to figure it out. So the only way I ever got to that point was I knew I was going to have to figure it out. And what helped me I think pushed me through was watching my dad grow up and watching him bust himself into pieces basically working. Like I said before, I never understood that until I had my own kids, or I had a real job, and you have to go out and provide for your family. And back then our house, we paid we paid $35,000 For our house when I was like two years old from what my parents told me, we end up selling it for $57,000. And we bought a house for 80,000. And then and that was our payment, you know, like 600 bucks a month, we struggle to make that payment sometimes. And
and I will tell you this, a lot of people now live outside of their means because of the way that the government has allowed for some of this flexibility and different things. And so as a result of that these people get themselves in a jam, sometimes with their mortgages and their car payments, and they bite off more than they can chew. We didn't do that. Trust me, we didn't do that I shared clothes with my brother. My sister got handouts from our cousins, like we struggled that we really struggled. And I'm not saying we're I'm not saying we're poor by any means, trust me. We weren't those people, we were worse off. And we were blessed to have what we have. But we my parents both had a word for it. And we did. And that till later on. I think back now as being a dad, like I said, a husband, you know, and I'm like, gosh, my parents really had to make it work and not just the emotional stuff with the relationship. Also, there's this provide you need to provide for your family. You can't just live on nothing. I mean, I'm sure people like taking the government handouts, but that was not something my parents liked doing the headline more pride than that. And it was a different era in the 80s and 90s. You know, you want it to work you want it to make money you didn't want to it was a bad thing to get welfare and food stamps and to go on government aid. That was bad. I mean, not bad like but that was you didn't want to do that. You know, I'm saying that was you hadn't you wanted to go work for what you had. You want. It's the old America that doesn't exist anymore. But you know, we're hoping that comes back around at some point but But you, you you you took pride in that you went out there you put your hard day's work and you got paid for that work, you put that money in your bank, you paid your bills you got by then if you can save enough I remember, I'm getting off top here. But one summer, we took a vacation and it was like it cost us like $2,500. And you're gone for a month and my parents saved up for like five years to take this one vacation in the summer, you know, and we went all the way around the upper part of the United States to the west. And we went down California and down through Arizona and backup, we took this like month long vacation, and during the summer when there was no school, we had like exam we wrote it, it was crazy, man. But I remember we can only afford the van. So we bought this van. And then we ended up using it that whole summer and selling it like a year later because we couldn't afford it. But we had to have this bed for the trip. It feels like a $10,000 man or something. But so anyways, all this coming back to you know, this all stemmed from my, my, my dad and my mom working really hard to make ends meet and give us those little extra things that in life that you'd like to have, you know, and so I think I watched my dad basically work himself to death almost. And I saw like, hey, there's a healthy part of this. And there's an unhealthy part of this, and you got to have a balance. And so when I played I just told myself when I started, I said listen, Chris, to myself is me talking myself. I'm just gonna give you a little, you know, little field looking
Tim DiFrancesco 21:08
for the inside. What's going on in there?
Chris Kaman 21:10
Yeah, so I said, Okay, Chris, how long are these guys playing this game, average NBA career was like four or five years because there's a lot of 10 day contracts that they have to average and they're not guys weren't playing 2019 18 guys are playing 10 years, eight years 1312 Until medicine and technology came out things because normal played longer, you know, and the way the game is played. It's a little, it's a little less physical. So I said, Okay, let's do this. As long as just say I can play 10 years. So I told myself, I said, I'm not going to drink. I'm not going to go to party, I'm not going to do drugs. I'm not going to go to strip clubs. I'm not gonna stay out late. I just made a commitment to myself, I'm gonna go to bed. Most people would call this a square. But I've never drank in my life. I've never done drugs. My life. I've never been into that I'm at a strip club in my entire life. I've never been to one. I wouldn't know my way around a strip club with you and for you, you know, you know, Yeah, but you're not
Phil White 22:02
like house, you're not a Vegas guy. Right? For various reasons.
Chris Kaman 22:06
These are the summer league in Vegas. And so I would take like a couple 1000 bucks and just give you per diem. And I just go right to the table. And I just sit there and play like, fight our hands a pie Gow poker, just on you know, but, but like, No, I was never really left. So. So that being said, like, I just never, I just told myself, I was never going to do that stuff. And guys tried to drag me out all the time. I can't tell you how many when I especially when I was young. They tried to like, twist me and turn me and go all these different Oh, why don't you come with us? And then I'm like, Yeah, I knew what happened. I just heard the stories. And I didn't want to get on that bus. That team bus that was going to the club or the were you know that they had the night boss or whatever would the security interview. This I'm gonna go to my room guys. And they fought me hard on it for a few years. And then they knew who I was, you know, because Timmy can tell you a little more. But it's, it's there's a lot of pressure when you're young to do certain things. And, you know, I can see you know, guys go the other way, you know, and, and so for me, I just didn't want to because I wanted to be the best player I could be because like I told you before I was on athletic. I wasn't very, you know, I wasn't very big, white stiff, you know, I was when I like I'll say, so I knew I had to work hard, I knew I was going to have to put the time in. So I just told myself, I'm not going to do that stuff. And so I didn't do that stuff the whole time. I played it for 13 years. But every single day, I tried to leave everything I could on the court. Now you're not going to have good days all the time. i But but you want to you're not gonna have good practices, you're gonna have bad games, it's just part of being a human being and playing a sport that requires a competition with other athletes. And so you know, that's why some guys score 50 and a night or 60 or 70. And some guys score two or don't play, everybody's important. It just all have different roles. So I knew I was gonna have a chance to be okay, because I was a high draft pick. And they were gonna give me the opportunity. They had told me that early on. And my for my benefit, I get Mike Dunn levy a lot of credit, because senior because he was my coach for seven and a half years, or six and a half years. And then he gave me the opportunity to he saw what I could was capable of. And he knew somehow he knew, I think he's got a great knack for that. But then he just slowly just helped me develop into the player into being. And I just told myself, I wasn't going to hunt, I wasn't going to do anything during the season. I was just going to bow as I love to but so I just was like I'm gonna stay committed. And so I stay committed. I worked on my game, I worked on my my trade my craft as much as I could. Like I said there was days, I remember one year I got injured. It was towards the end of the year. I'm not gonna say who it was or where I was at, but I was out a long period of games. And the upper management told me just relaxed, we don't need you to come back. You know, it's the whole draft pick deal, and they don't want to that whole scenario that people try to do. They don't want to really try to win in the end but they will. So towards that end of the year that I rolled my ankle real bad. And I was mad because I wanted to play because I want We'll come back and play because I always told myself I was going to do the best I could. But these people told me just take it easy, take it slow. And I regret that. That's the one thing I regret on my career. One of the few things that a lot because mistakes are mistakes for humans, but that thing, I regret letting them talk me into that, and just kind of laying it down the rest of the year and sitting there. And I had team didn't understand it. They were frustrated, upset with me, but I didn't want to go tell them hey, so and so told me the to not do anything, you know, just relax. And so I was just like, I did what they asked me to do. But then I was so mad at myself then in that year and going into the next season. They tried to come talk to me and I just said Don't talk to me because you're not what the way you do things doesn't make sense to me. I want to try to win at all costs. Right? So you see how these guys do it. Now they they just they jump on the the best teams? Oh, yeah. Well, let's call our buddies and we'll get together and we'll come play the whole LeBron, you know, the Miami Heat taken my talents to South Beach. What a joke. You know, I mean, just what a utter joke to the game of basketball. Like, when I played for the clippers, we weren't good for many years, right? But why don't we go to upper management and say, Hey, you guys gotta get me out of here. This sucks. This team's horrible. You guys aren't committed to winning? No, you don't give up on your team and leave and go somewhere else. You just say let's keep building. And so I had some good years with the clippers. It wasn't no championship, but I had some good years now. So I just was never I wouldn't call it a quitter. That's a poor choice of words, but I was just not like, interested in like, like, hey, sign me up somewhere else you are, you will. Let me let me just call Tim Duncan, see if he needs me on on his team, or let me you know, like, let me call Kevin Garnett and see if he's interested in being the Timberwolves. Like, that's just what they do low you're creating coming up, why don't you hold on to that, you know, free agency, and then we'll just we'll team up and we'll just dominate, you know, like the Warriors where he's won a title without Kevin Durant. They didn't need him to win a title afterwards, you know, and, I mean, he's a heck of a player. I'm not running down. I'm just saying that mentality to me, I don't understand that. Right. I feel
Tim DiFrancesco 26:56
like you're I feel like that loyalty, though, again, you know, as we're still sort of, on this, this dialogue about your dad, where a lot of this came from a lot of that sort of got modeled to you from how he approached his life. And, you know, in our, in some of our conversations together, I know, you've talked about your dad and called him, you know, he was like your buddy. And, you know, I had never really heard what you said earlier, though, because it's interesting how you talked earlier about how in the beginning, early parts of of your childhood and growing up, he was working so hard, you know, the the time around him was not as much at towards the end. Tell me about tell us about where that ladder stages kind of got to and what made him your body as as your dad?
Chris Kaman 27:45
Well, I mean, first of all, you know, there's three kids, my brother's older, my sisters younger out in the middle. My brother's so much older than me. He's almost five years older than me. So he was like a senior, and I was in eighth grade. And so he was in a hole, him and my dad had a whole nother different relationship, like it was a different level. And so my dad, I kind of got one on a lot of one on one with my dad, because at that moment, I'm an eighth grade, and my brother goes to college down in Texas, which is pretty far from Michigan, you know. And so it was just, and my sister is four years younger than me. So my mom kind of was handled herself. She's four. I'm eight, my brother's, you know, 13, or 12, or 13, depending on the time of year when His birthday is. And so basically, it was such a big age gap. So he was already doing like other stuff. I mean, he was already like in college, and I'm great, right. And so then my dad started to get into at that moment. So they had this thing. At my dad's work where he could pick up a shift, it's called duty duty week, you could take the whole week, take a truck home, take a cell phone home, and then they would have any problems in the town, they would call my dad, and he would go in and he'd get all the time and a half. And so he did that as much as he could to try to make the money make match up, you know. And so we went to a private Christian school growing up, and my mom, that's my mom worked those three jobs. Yeah, a lot of people would sit here and say, You didn't have to do that work that hard. You could have had that money for your family. But that was a choice they made that they wanted me to education and a Christian foundation in the background. That's not for everybody. And that's fine. To each his own. And so they chose that for us. And so there was a reason that was part of the reason why it was hard to make ends meet all the time. But there was this at the school I went to that they had this basketball program that I started to get into a more junior high, which seventh eighth grade. And so my dad's like, well, I'll come watch. And then I think he got into a more. And then he realized, oh, you know, my kid's gonna be pretty good. Because I just kept growing and growing and growing. And I was six foot two my freshman year then I was six, eight, my sophomore year, then it was, so it just kept going, you know? And so, you, you realize, I think as a parent, like, hey, this kid, he's pretty good. You know, then I started getting letters from colleges, my junior year, and he's just like, well, it didn't we didn't know anything we didn't know like, hey, what does that mean? You like you get letters, you know, like, I was getting offers to go to college for free and they couldn't believe it, you know? And to tell you how am I came in my dad's family. There's Two of the Caymans out of like 70, or 80, have G EDS. None of them have diplomas. So me and my sister are the only three Caymans to have diplomas. My dad's family, just they just didn't care about that, you know, they just they weren't interested in that. And, and I don't mean to run them down or anything. It's just they just didn't care. It wasn't there way they were all worth physical jobs. And they had different ideas on on life. And so my parents were like, We want you guys to get diplomas. So my brother got one, I got one, my sister got one. So they never thought, let alone a diploma that it came in could go to college, right. So I got a free college ride. And so they're like, oh, you know, maybe in haste, I took the offer too early, because I took it at the end of my junior year before I started my senior year even. And my thought was, hey, I've never had this opportunity. I didn't want to get hurt and lose that. So I just, you know, and I didn't, but get hurt. But but so I went to Central Michigan, a small school in the center of the state and Central Michigan. And so anyways, but my dad started get involved in it when I was in eighth grade. And so my dad would work. And then during the winter, he would plow the roads when those big trucks with the salt on the back. He did every winter. So he would take the night shift. But him and his boss had worked out where he could come in a little bit later. So he could watch my games, and then take his night show. And so they let him do that my junior and senior year. And so and, you know, I was pretty good at basketball by that point. And so he just supported me but I you know, like I said before, I never went to camps and everyone to clinics, I never did any of that kind of stuff. No AAU, really, I did a couple games of this AYP T thing. But other than that, I didn't really I didn't really get into much of that. And so he end up watching as much as he could. And when I went to college, I stayed pretty close to home was like an hour and a half drive from home. So he went to all those games. And so he's just by that point, he was trying to get way more into it. He didn't understand he never knew basketball. He didn't understand basketball. He didn't understand why didn't dunk it every single time. You know, like, Man Yeah, get up there. Yeah, exactly. Like why don't you just Chris I don't get it. Son. Why don't you just don't get every time I mentioned. Like, if I could dunk it on everybody every time I'd be in the NBA already you know.
And so you know we had our discussion but he would always call like he always thought anytime I you know, of course a loving dad. Anytime I made a charging fall it was always a block on the other guy anytime it wasn't me it was a charge on the other guy or whatever. It was just it was how it was and he'd be at the games be the loudest guy there but not knowing what he was talking about. I remember when I play when I played for the Clippers from Mike Dunleavy. I got him seats right into the baseline. Right? You know, where the where the advertising used to turn over. Before the plays, he sat right behind it. And I was on the bench and I wasn't playing a lot that game. And he yelled at Dudley me. He said, Hey, done leaving. Put your big guy in there. You know, he just the whole game. Just how did Mike Donlevy and Mike care for the game asked me if I would have my dad tone it down a little bit. So no. But yeah, I think a lot of that started, you know, with him going through it. And then every just every level that I went to just more and more proud, you know, and you know, and, and, actually, that was so my I finished the season and 16th of May. And he died in July of July 20 of 16. So two months later, he left out a trip to go out to Arizona where a lot of his family lives. And they just never came back. Which was it was hard for us for a long time. It's definitely gotten a lot easier, but it never, you know, you never forget that kind of stuff, right? But I remember my whole plan was I had just bought a ranch in Oregon. And I got my dad a tag and I got my father in law tag it was gonna be some brother, it was some father in law, bonding and some son and father and you know, we're all gonna go out there together, and we're gonna hunt on the ranch. And whenever, and, you know, a lot of people don't like hunting and they don't understand it. And I'm not trying to run anybody down on either side. But for me, I've just grown up that way that's just been my life. And so I don't have another objective. It's normal to me to kill an animal and to eat that animal. And to use an animal in any way that I can. I do like trophy hunting as well. I'm not going to lie about it. You know, it's just not something I'd beat around the bush but I don't talk about a lot because it doesn't interest everybody and some people think it's wrong or whatever. And so I don't want to like make anybody feel upset, but I just try to be me as best I can. So passion and escape for you. Yeah, exactly. It's a time where you can kind of relax your mind and just sit quietly but what you don't get a lot of that in the NBA as you know. You know and then at home you don't get a lot of that with three little look. And so poor poor wife, you know, she's She's a beast. She just keeps going man. I don't know how she does it sometimes but God bless her man. Shout out. Yeah. But anyways, so you know, I was set to go on this hunting trip in mind. Add, and then all sudden, July he dies. And then my kid has his upper my oldest bear has his upper right, upper right lobe remove of his lung in August a month later. And then my wife tells me she's, you know, she's pregnant two months before in May she's like, Oh, I'm pregnant. So she's pregnant, my dad dies, my kid has a surgery, then, you know, then hunting season started, and I didn't know what to do, I just wanted to keep my mind off of my best buddy dying, you know, I just want to keep my mind off of this. So I just started going hunting, I was gone. And I wasn't a good dad or husband at that point. And I was just gone a lot, just tried to keep my mind, I didn't know any other way to deal with it, you know. So I just kept hunting and hunting and in staying gone. And I would avoid everything, I was avoided everything because it was hard. I mean, it was for me, it was it was a huge loss, emotionally, physically, mentally the whole thing and wore me real bad. And so I just kept putting them we had our little girl, and she had colic for the first five months, and it was just pile on talking about pile on so and then I kind of regretted, I'm getting to another topic, obviously. But like, at that moment, I kind of regretted retire and miss this. So I went back for a game in March The following year, March of 17, to see my teammates and kind of, you know, check everything out. And they treated me like I was one of their own still. And there's a bond and a brotherhood there that that lives on for a long time. You know, and, and there's nothing like being in the locker room with your team before game and after game when you know, you got a job to do together and to go out there and make it all work on the court make it fit. It's kind of a special thing. And it's hard to explain other than to say that, you know, it's like your family, because you spend more time with those guys. And then you would your wife and kids almost, you know. And so, you know, there was that moment when I was done when I was kind of like upset and frustrated with myself because it's like me it should I have because I got a lot of offers to go back. And I just, I just when my dad was gone. My wife was my kid had surgery, my wife was like, What are you going to do is August already and I hadn't made a choice. And I had teams still calling and I was like, gosh, I don't know, you know, and I really wanted to go back to the trailblazers, but they had signed Festus xili
end up never playing the whole game that season, I was like, Man, I would have played taking half the money was so I just I just like mad. And I really my heart was set on going back to Portland. And it was such a great experience, great staff, great organization. And I ended up you know, like, not playing again. And maybe I had some regrets later. You know, I'm saying
Tim DiFrancesco 37:36
there's a lot at that moment for you though. I mean, it's easy to sit here and say, you know that now that but you know, just processing a decision like that at that moment and trying to figure out, you know, what's the best thing for me and my family at this exact moment is, is a lot harder to do in that moment than it is after the fact. That's incredible Chris and I you know, just kind of hearing, you know how that played out. And, and you know, big credit to you as well for finding a way that was, you know, a lot a lot of people and you could have done a lot, you know, many more different things to find a way to kind of process that all than then to get out in the woods and do some hunting and, you know, spend extra time there. And so, I think that's a big credit to you, I do want to go back and unpack a couple of things. Because, you know, in the in the pre, if we just go back to the early stages, have you fallen in love with the game and and kind of what that was like and you talked about earlier and I had on my list of things to talk to to get more information about an understanding of the that you talked about the three on three, the street ball, and when you're talking about that, are you referring and in many cases to the GUS Macker tournament that you've played it a lot? And can you talk about the GUS Macker tournament in a row and kind of what that was for you growing
Chris Kaman 38:55
up? Yeah, so I mean, a lot of people probably have like round ball or who put up red hacker. There's a lot of different tournaments. But so for me, and the area that I live in, in Grand Rapids, Michigan area, there's this three and three tournaments been around for over 40 years now. It's called Gus Macker. The original creator was a brother, a guy and his brother. And his nickname is Gus and they played in their backyard. And they started off in their backyard and then expanded to this huge tournament with over 5000 teams and then now they go city all over cities on every weekend of the summer. There's a tournament in every city that you can imagine across the United States more in the Midwest, there's some in New Mexico some in New York. So they're everywhere. So growing up you know, it was like I don't know you pay 80 bucks for for kids 20 bucks apiece, you got a free T shirt and you play in a tournament you can get a really cool trophy the trophies are really good. Comparative to some of these other trophies they give out these crappy three threes, but so I've always it's a street ball. So like it lets a big guy dribble the basketball, that's a big guy. Rebound, take it back, shoot threes, whatever you typically wouldn't do because in the 80s and 90s Big guys did what big guys do and That was posted up and stay in the paint, right? Nowadays, it's just the game is so different. And so I played these things religiously on the weekends as much as I could. I got stacks of trophies in my basement. I mean, it's, it's pretty cool. And now it's like kind of a legacy like my kids. Hopefully one day we'll play on these things. And I just played one actually funny enough with a guy we both know Rob Sacrae. I flew him in from Washington and me and him played in the tournament. Wow. Just for fun. I mean, it was a horrible experience in terms of I was so sore from Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, cuz I don't play.
Phil White 40:32
Let's go on TD, we could be alternate. Chris knows I can still shoot it every go. I've just set paxville or carry border or something.
Chris Kaman 40:42
Watch TV play. So all the alternate list. All right. These tournaments for years and years, I still play them in a matter of fact, when I was done playing, and I kind of let myself go for a while I got over 315 pounds. I played just a reference point. I played it to 65 to 260. I'm currently like 275 now, but it took me you know, it took me about two years were like, I got back on my feet. And thanks to Tim actually, as sim saved me pretty good for after I was done playing because Tim had some extra time on us.
Tim DiFrancesco 41:23
I did we were we were we were working man. We had a chance to put him.
Chris Kaman 41:28
Yeah, Tim had just at that moment started TD athletes edge, one of his companies that he owns. And basically, when I was done playing, I let myself go and my back was just wrecked. And I couldn't get myself I went to a similar physical therapist, and I was just I was at a loss. I just couldn't figure it out. And you know, when this is sad, I'm gonna say this, but this is sad. But when you're done playing, it's not sad because they do it on purpose. But it's just part of the good because there's 15 new guys that they got to take care of. But those those NBA teams, they they aren't like, Hey Chris, how you doing? They're not keeping up with you. Because there's now 15 new guys that are trying to win the championship every tournament championship and trying to get draft picks, whatever the case is. There's new things they're working on. So they're not checking on Chris, they're not. They don't care when you retire. Sure if you're LeBron or Kobe or Kevin, you know any of these guys that are big time. Yeah, those guys stay connected, right? Or dirk or TD Tim Duncan. They stay connected. But, you know, for a guy like me, I was a solid basketball player I played in my you know, in an all star game, I would say I was I was above average. But you know, I wasn't a superstar. And even still, like, there's just no loyalty to those guys anymore. Unless they're like a Tim Duncan or Kobe or they've been on the same team and the legacy they've created. So for me, I wasn't mad about that. I was just explained to you that that's just how it was. Yeah. Yeah. And so when Tim you actually retired from the NBA at that point, and it took a different path to start the TD athletes edge and so I I didn't know it and I, I saw my agent, Rob Lincoln became the general manager of the Lakers. And I was like, who's gonna be as Tim's to work with. So I started to I stayed in contact with Gary Vidya who was that lead trainer and I was like, Hey, what's going on? How's TD doing? Because I just hadn't talked to him in a couple of years. And he's like, Oh, they let him go or whatever. He parted ways. They separated and I was like, Oh, who are they hiring? They hired a different guy.
Tim DiFrancesco 43:19
We didn't talk about that part in part two of the of the
Chris Kaman 43:23
three or four. Anyways, but so Tim was
Phil White 43:26
asking moonshine episode I'm telling you
Chris Kaman 43:30
to have a little extra and so
Phil White 43:33
we're gonna Greg Greg Cook in and he's gonna bring the moonshine and the out burgers. Yes,
Chris Kaman 43:38
I could bring some out burgers to this weekend. Yeah, that'd be grand. So anyways, look, Tim has started to pay attention i Then I found out from Gary Vee that he had left and started his own thing. And so I got a hold of Tim Good thing he didn't change his number on me but or screen my call but I got a little timidly Hey, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm just kind of working at home just trying to sorting things out. And you know, he's getting some offers from some other teams, but he wasn't sure what he wanted to do. And so he ended up starting in the TDF his edge and going forward with that, I was like, Well, hey, can you fly in? I need your help. What do you got going on? So he kind of went through the whole thing and basically saved me and then about three or four months after he had started coming, he came the weekend I had my first Gus Macker that I hadn't played Yeah, years. Then it was actually I remember was on my birthday, April 27 and 28th. My birthday is the 28th and he came at 26 and we did some prep stuff got me kind of like fired up a little bit ready to go. And we played in the tournament and Tim was there to support me helped me kind of get ready and keep me loose and I was just It was rough but rough wanted to get through but ever since then I played in like six more that summer and I've been doing more family church stuff on Sundays. I haven't played as many as I you know, as I'd like to but but they're still there and there's still one and one of my best Yeah, yeah, that's fine. So so that's kind of in so Tim got his first experience with it then and, and so but Tim, you know, thank God he was flexible and came over to help me out to kind of save me. I didn't know I had saw I had seen like two or three other physical therapists and they, they were just all this, you know, the traditional Hill theraband. And all this stuff that people like to do that kind of isn't your norm. And Tim has a different way of looking at things and thinking of things. And so I was grateful that he was able to come over and
Tim DiFrancesco 45:29
we put in some great work there and, you know,
Chris Kaman 45:32
food that we ate. We enjoy
Tim DiFrancesco 45:35
a good meal. We weren't we weren't for it, though. Three days ago.
Phil White 45:42
Yeah, TV TV, where Chris is speaking to us from did you say that? That was maybe freight being framed or something that at the time the bond there?
Tim DiFrancesco 45:50
Yeah, yeah, the Chris is in the barn, that was being put up in the in the form that he was putting together on his property there. And it was, you know, I, I think of I'm grateful as well for that opportunity at that time to come in, and kind of help you put a foundation I think, I think in terms of your body and kind of get you back I think a lot of players Chris, you know, they're not proactive enough at that, that awkward moment after they've retired. And they you know, you go from and I'm just gonna just kind of start this Convo, I want you to finish it, but it's you, you go from day in, day out, you've got everything scheduled for you practice, practice, again, you go back to shoot your active all day long, you know, healthy food, if you want, it is always available. You know, your schedule is all laid out, you're just burning through calories, especially if you're playing a lot of minutes. And you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, all of a sudden, now you're at home, and it's like, I can make my own schedule. I can you know, you're
Chris Kaman 46:52
it's even more than your then then you're saying you're nice. Yeah. But and I respect that about you, you're always consider, but I'll be honest with you the hardest thing other than my children and being married, which if you want to be a good husband, and a good dad, it's a difficult, you know, it takes a lot of work and you got to pull it together, as you know. And other than that the heart next hardest thing that I've ever had to do is retire from the game of basketball, the game of basketball, the 13 years, I played the three years of college that is like, I can't tell you on a scale, like how easy that is compared to retiring. And especially, and fatherhood and spousal hood. Like I can't tell you how hard that stuff is. The NBA is to me just being real, because I did it, I can I get a great firsthand look at it. That is a joke compared to retiring. And compared to the other things. And the crazy part of why that is there's a couple of things and, and I I always try to be careful with this. But I just I just say it bluntly, because it's, you know, the NBA has a lot of these meetings every year with players they want to get ready. They want to get their finances in order they wanna get their dragons in or they want to get security or safety protocols. They want to get media in order, they want to get all these different things, you know, the drug program, the, you know, the steroid abuse, use the different doctor visits, all this stuff, they want you to do all this stuff, media, days, training, media, everything, they have all these meetings that take up so much of your time. The one meaning they don't have is the Retiree Meeting. So anybody to me, this is my opinion, anybody who thinks in their last three to five years, retiring, they're going to retire soon. You see when Dwayne Wade was about to retire, he's I have to I have to find a psychologist, psychiatrist, or whatever you call, I have to find somebody, I have to see a doctor, I have to get get that going now. And that I can't tell you how real that is, like in terms of you know, so when when you retire. There's no more NBA help. In terms of a team, the Blazers are and no offensive players, great organization, my favorite team I've ever played for. I'm not running them down at all. Like I told you before, there's 15 new guys, there's a season started. There's medical directors, there's trainers, there's athletic trainers, or strength coaches, there's so many areas that have to be managed and taken care of in this a lot of work with equipment GMs, Assistant, GM the whole deal. There's just so much going on salary caps and trades and, you know, new acquisitions and front office people and security people. There's just so much that goes into it. I don't blame anybody. But one thing that the Players Association in the NBA needs to do, in my opinion, is in the guys. If a guy's like, Hey, I got three to five years left, and there's this generational guys been around for 1015 20 years. They need to have a program that helps transition these guys because they'll they'll sit here and say they do they'd like to put a great cover on the front of the book. But the reality is, don't Yeah, and I'll tell you a perfect example. So So I stopped playing and they stopped calling. Right and so they stopped calling. No more meals. No more training. No more shots up. No more running up and down. No, here's the big one. No more. No more MBA. nbpa help. nbpa tries they do a decent job train, right. But the biggest problem is as a retired player going before, I know now I know but like, going into that, you don't realize what its gonna be mentally, emotionally, physically, like, so my body was, and I'm not beautiful, most beautiful specimen from a physical standpoint, but it's a work in progress. Yeah, everyday trust me. Mostly backwards currently, but I'm hoping to get forwards at some point. But anyways, you know, when you're such good shape, he has this crazy to say this, but like when you're in such good shape, and then you're not, you hurt, because you're not in good shape.
Or when you're in good shape, and getting try to get in better shape. Like, physically, I was so sore. The five months after I was done playing, just trying to do anything, you're sore right away. I mean, it's like, how do people live? Like that is what I said to myself? How do people live? It pushes you to stay in shape, right? Like I just ran four miles, two days ago. You know, like I try to keep trying to stay in shape. I got a trainer now and a local guy. And we've talked about this before, but but I just try to stay in shape because they don't tell you any of this stuff. Right? There's no doctor visits, like I said, there's no more check your blood panel, there's no more you got to do all this on your own. Haha. Anybody who's listening who's not an NBA player, or retired NBA player, or like, well, that's what we all do, you know, like, we all got to do our own. But to be fair, you're 1718 1920 21 years old, you don't really understand life quite yet. Most for the most part, and you come in and they everybody does everything for you a little bit, because they don't instruct you on how to manage your own stuff. You have somebody always doing it. And I've dealt with some of these guys now after playing itself some friends and, and it's funny to me, because they always talk to my guy, talk to my guy. And I'm like, listen, so I'm like, when you are retiring, your guy's not going to call you anymore and help you, you're gonna want to do this stuff on your own. So start I tried to help him I'm like, start it on your own. I know you're I played I know how much talent. And there is there's a lot of time when you're now
Phil White 52:42
it's now it's this right? Everyone's live in mediating their entire downtime through a postcard sized screen, which must have been a little bit different for when you are lucky.
Chris Kaman 52:52
That's for episode number two and three as well filming the social media. There's a place of purpose in place for social media, but I feel like it's gone way too far. At this point.
Phil White 53:02
I found like the most interesting man in the world. Thing about there was one of those commercials, you know, the original Dos Equis guy that has now stopped doing it. And there's one about pickup lines. And he was like, there's a time and a place for that the time is never, and you can figure out on your own
Chris Kaman 53:25
social media is how it's gonna be helpful for you, right? I mean, because in the interwebs, and the interwebs. Indeed, yeah. And so all that stuff, joking aside, I mean, that's gonna be helpful for someone that is trying to do what you guys are trying to do. But for me, I got kids and I gotta raise them in this world. And this world is forever changing is changing fast. And so I'm always concerned like, with me and my wife, we're always talking, you know, at that table, we're kind of days down. We're like, just going over everything. And like, I'm just like, don't my kids like six? He's about to be seven, my oldest. And there's kids in his class that have cell
Unknown Speaker 54:00
phones and so wrong.
Chris Kaman 54:04
What are these parents in? Okay, gosh, there's so much I can talk about your but
Phil White 54:09
just give it Yeah, just go at it, man. Just go at it. It's alright, what is enough here for part two, three and 17 We just gotta roll for years. Let's go at it.
Chris Kaman 54:19
Really difficult to me is that when I was a kid, there was no cell phones, right? You had that big huge button phone in the car with the antenna you stuck out. And you had this phone that was like, you know, like the size of a house. And like You're like you're hitting the buttons like with your fist. They're so big on that thing. You know the bag, get lighter. And so that was the first time nobody had that. Right. And, and I would leave in the morning and I would be gone all day. Right? That's what I would do. One day in the summer. And that's what we did. And now a parent wants to be able to get a hold of their kid every I don't know where this anxiety came into the world that like someone's gonna take my kid someone's gonna murder him. My kid, someone's gonna, someone's gonna do whatever, blah, blah, blah. And so like, we all have to have our phones Oh, where are you at? Where are you? What are you coming home? And it's just like, we forgot how to be a kid, you know, like, all that, like, my kids want to sit on their iPads and don't get me wrong. There's a purpose and a place for an iPad as well. Like, if mom's making dinner and Dad's gone. Hey, guys, here's 20 minutes for your iPad. But, but nowadays, everybody just shoves their face in it, and they can't get there. So I tell my kids, you got 20 minutes, go ahead, use it, use it up when you want. And then and then like, I want to download another app do you want to watch? I was like, You got one already. So you're gonna delete that one, if you're gonna get another one. Like, just just, just, it's just like we have to have. It's like Amazon. 25 years ago, Amazon had no place in this world. We don't need today or tomorrow. Tomorrow for like, like, and don't get me wrong, I got Amazon. It's sweet. But like, Why do you have to have Amazon? Why does the world have to go so fast? Like, it's just the same thing with our food. It's, it's just a shame.
Tim DiFrancesco 56:03
times or times are very different. I mean, it's, it's, it's a treacherous sort of wall, the scale in terms of especially as you said, you know, being a parent in this world, and if it's just you, you have to worry about you make your decisions. You do what you do, and you it is what it is. But it's you know, it's not that easy. When you have other people around you that you're you're responsible for. And it's, you know,
Chris Kaman 56:28
when I was little, I looked out the frickin window.
Phil White 56:33
Like now, now, now you'd be arrested. Your neighbors would be saying our neighbors staring at me through his window. You get the cops over here, right?
Chris Kaman 56:42
So I tell my kid, he's like, I'm bored. And I'm like, Cool outside. Here's some matches, like the woods.
Phil White 56:49
Yeah, here's a box of fireworks get out there. What are you doing?
Chris Kaman 56:52
Are you my little guy has got a BB gun. I said, you know, you Don't point that at people. That's how you work on you know, the gun saved you with a BB gun. So you don't point it at people. And you don't shoot the school windows out? Yeah. We have a big chunk of woods. So it's nice. So I said go out in the woods, build a fort. Do whatever you want to do go to the beach. Sometimes we have a big sand area down by the water. I'ma go down there build us dig a hole, find the water, whatever it is. My point is just nobody's doing that. Every sports want to crack. I mean, there's no sports.
Phil White 57:21
It's video. It's playing video games. Yeah, the fact they even call
Chris Kaman 57:26
it the matrix like wake up people. Like, like, take the red pill. Don't take the blue. You're still you know, whatever the pills are. I don't remember which one goes to the room. I'm getting a little off topic here. Well,
Unknown Speaker 57:43
the points that you make, you're being real.
Chris Kaman 57:46
For me, it comes back to what I was just how I got there as it comes back to nbpa MBA this, this, this battle of these guys want to retire and they don't know what to do, like perfect. Health insurance. The NBA provides it when you play so many years or whatever, but they don't tell you how to get on it. Right? They don't do they don't tell you how to fix your Cobra. They don't tell you how to, you know, they don't tell you how to set up your annuity set up your 401k switched everything. It's basically like, Hey, let me call you for 15 years. And then on your 15 Oh, thank you so much. See you later. And then after that you don't you know, they don't they don't want to it's not like I said it's not because they're bad is not because they're doing something wrong. It's just it is what it is. There's not a program to help this transition. Hopefully there is no I'm talking to anybody. But hopefully there there is because there was not a program to help you transition. And when you go from every single day running, jumping, shooting, lifting, you know, hot tub, cold tub trainers, taping ankles and seeing the same people, Hey, give me this, give me that. Where's the food? What do we have just all this stuff? And you know how it is they just baby these people. And I'm mad at myself for what I played. Let them do that to me now. Because I know what I know. But when you get there, yeah, just take it because it's easy. It's free, you know? And so now, I'm hoping through social media through all these different ways that that I do. I don't do social media or anti social media, I think, obviously be blown out. I think it's wrecked the world. The there's a guy who's a motivational speakers in Jordan Peterson he, he talks about, you know, everybody puts this beautiful stuff on social media. And everybody thinks they got to be like that. And then this beautiful guy on social media drives his Porsche into a concrete barrier on purpose at 130 miles an hour because he hates his life. While he's showing everybody through social media. He's got the best life in the whole world. He's the most beautiful person in the world. And everybody wants to be like him, but they don't know what his life is like. And so there's the media, we have these kids, these young people, I want that I want to be rich, I want to be famous. And so people are doing the craziest stuff to be rich and to be famous and, and, and they don't realize what they're doing to this younger generation. that's watching them, you know?
Tim DiFrancesco 1:00:02
Yeah, it's a whole different, it's a completely different landscape, a whole different set of rules, a whole different, you know, set of tools to navigate this world. And, you know, you said, you said a lot of interesting stuff there. So I'm gonna do my best to unpack a couple things. But, you know, one of the things that you talked about Chris was, in terms of, as, as, you know, you you talked about when the, when the movement, and, you know, the running up and down and the care of your body that was just part of the routine was suddenly gone, you we're moving a lot less or have not required to move as much. And it actually it actually hurt to do that. And so the reason why that's really, you know, fascinating to me, is, you know, it is how the body works, the body, our joints, they love movement, they love exposure to all ranges of movement that they are supposed to get. And you know, for you, it was it was built in that was
Chris Kaman 1:01:01
not on that, when I was playing on call you I say you don't know what you're talking about. But now you know what I what I'm with you now and, and right? When you're in the NBA, you don't really have time to get out of shape, really, I mean, did they see out of shape in the summer, but if you're horrible, and you're done in April, you're starting back in September, you know, you know, a little bit early September playing a little bit if you're the but for me, I would start I'd take a month off and I'd start I'd just train the rest of summer. But like, I never knew how to shape right. But like, roll if, like when hunting season, I do my best. But it's the hardest time of year for me to stay in shape. Because it's cold out and I'm in and a lot of sedentary stuff, sometimes you're moving a little bit depends on what hunt you're on. But so for me, like then I tried to get myself back in shape. So starting like, probably after Christmas, I'll start training again. And, and I run still, you know to keep my lungs but like, but I don't have the I don't lift I like to live I'd like to live legs, it's kind of my eight legs, but I love it now. And so when I start back, I'll be I'll be it's almost like I feel like I'm like a machine that's the joints get all rusty and and never got oil into him, and then start getting that oil back in there. The natural synovial fluid, but like we start getting that stuff back, you start, you know, start feeling sore, and you're like, oh my gosh, is a good and a bad thing. Right? I mean, I understand that well enough to know, it's a good thing because I'm sore because I've I've over exerted them over inflamed those areas by more activity than I should have. But you know, there's not a well I
Tim DiFrancesco 1:02:39
think there's two, there's two different types of the soreness and the kind of pain soreness versus pain. And so it's like, you know, you kind of have the sedentary lack of movement, lack of activity can create actual pain, just because those areas aren't getting access to the motion and the strengthening and then creating, then there's the breakdown, because you worked that's sort of that good shore nest where your your body then is actually what's happening there as your body's adapting. It's, it's, it's adapting to the forces you're putting on it. And that's good, that's feels good for your body. But I had just never really thought of it. I just really, you know, it's it's so cool how you laid it out from the standpoint of what an NBA player goes through for in your case, 13 plus years of up and down and that kind of thing. And then all sudden, boom, it's it's not there, you've got to figure it out yourself.
Chris Kaman 1:03:31
The soreness from working hard and doing a good job. That's the soreness I always had in the NBA so common. Well then, of course, you know, I've struggled with the years for just an anxious mind racing mind. And so, you know, with that as unhealthy when there's unusual pains or unusual feelings, because you think something more serious is wrong. And I went from great shape always every year, you know, I trained hard to not nothing for two years, like I told you, then you came over and we started to train a little bit I was sore. Right. And I for a while that I kind of got through it. I started playing those two Gus macros that we talked about. Yeah. And then I let myself go back a little bit. I was just as back and forth game because because you don't want to wear your body out like you do on your own. You're playing the NBA, you're wearing yourself out. You've taken your bones and the you know, 80 year old man bones at some point. I mean, it's obviously exaggeration but you're you're wearing your bones that you're wearing your joints out and you're doing it fast. And it's there's a reason for it. You know, you're doing a job and you're getting paid a lot of money. And so you can't complain because we're we're not humans, we're robots essentially is what people I feel like look, I think sometimes, like you outside, you will have no concept sometimes. So I try to like let people in like, hey, it's not. I know we're getting paid a lot. But it's also it's not easy. Like that's why there's 50 of us in the world, right? And if you're playing heavy minutes and you're wearing yourself out, it's hard. I mean, it's physically demanding and so It's just weird when I got done that two year period, it was just I was. So I've never experienced out of shape in my entire life ever experienced out of shape, I'll just call it right. And to get back into shape, you know, that's a, it's relative for each person. But like to get back into shape, I told myself, because I'm never going to train like I did in the NBA, I don't even want any part of that. I hate that now, because because of how much intense you have to do every day to maintain the manage that I don't want to do that. I don't want that. So now I just run, I lift weights, and I take it easy. I don't go like every single day, because I'll hate it. If something is just sold such the same for so long, it gets monotonous and it gets annoying. And I'm like, forget it. So I tried to just mix it up, do a little bit here that there's keep my heart going, you know, and, and keep myself too sore. But sometimes I let myself.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:05:51
Yeah, I mean, but everybody does. I mean, we have ups and downs and ebbs and flows of how much you know, self care. And
Chris Kaman 1:05:57
it doesn't because I didn't for my whole life till I
Tim DiFrancesco 1:06:01
write you, you had a different path. And most people
Chris Kaman 1:06:04
explain this, there's another thing when you retire, it's this weird thing that they don't tell you about because they don't they don't talk to people when they're done. They don't really no, it's, it's, it's a hard thing. And the hardest part about all that isn't so much the physical part and all that and staying in shape. It's just that the overall like, hey, you've been coddled for so long, and you've had a goal in front of you for so long, and all these things on it. And now it's just gone. And so this this mental like, barrier you to overcome, like, literally you have to, like get through it like with a psychologist or shrinker. Or some people like to use pills. Some people use alcohol, some people use drugs, some people talk about it, some people talk to string, there's all these different ways, you know, and some people pray about it. Some people, you know, do different
Tim DiFrancesco 1:06:48
things talk about can you talk about how you've dealt with that, and you talk about an anxious mind that you've you've had. Point is,
Chris Kaman 1:06:55
so there's all these things, and and there's this just huge like, in your mind, it seems like it's this huge. It's like this huge barrier, like how am I ever gonna get past this? How am I going to work through this? What's it? How am I going to get to the point where I feel good about Chris Kaman? Who is no longer an NBA player who's a retired NBA player, you know, you know how people come out and they have this article is such and such retired today? Well, right, NBA doesn't put that out. So the only way that that gets out is if you call a reporter, or the reporter calls you and you tell them, I'm officially retired. So someone has to, I will never do that you never had a story about me, because I will never do that. Because to me, I don't care about the media, I don't care about any of that stuff. That stuff for me, I want to just go work. And I'm a different kind of guy, right? I mean, if you know that we both know that about me. But like, I just I don't need any famous, I don't need any of that kind of stuff. But I that just doesn't interest me. And so like for me to like put an article out about myself, like, I retired or I'm taking my talents to South Beach. It's just speaks to the human arrogance, and the human self pride. And I just, I don't know, I just don't like to do things like that. And I'm not trying to run the brand, because I actually liked Lebron James. And I like his game. But like, just I just felt like that situation was an easy, you know, pick, you know, poke the bear situation, but like, but like, for me, it's like, it's just like, how deep in my mind, I was like, how am I going to work through this? How am I going to get past this barrier, and I'll explain to you how I did but but as this overwhelming feeling, emotion, sensation, whatever you want to call it, to where it makes you, at times could make you sick to your stomach or so anxious, you can't sleep, like what am I going to do? How am I going to get through this? There's that aspect of it. And then what steps Am I taking to get through this? Like, in the now and I'll tell you what the worst thing happened. It got to the point where I'm just being honest here. I wouldn't tell too many people has been now everybody whoever listens all six people who listen to this one, though.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:09:05
I think it's four should be it should be by the time this goes
Unknown Speaker 1:09:07
live, I would hope.
Chris Kaman 1:09:09
Yeah, hopefully there'll be good. Anyways, I'm just I always like to give Phil I always like to give him a hard time. All right.
Phil White 1:09:15
All right. We need it. We want to be we wouldn't want any other way. Right?
Tim DiFrancesco 1:09:20
Do you feel I'd be worried if you didn't?
Chris Kaman 1:09:22
I wouldn't be on the show if I didn't. If I didn't truly think it was a good idea. And I like TD so we're good. If I don't like you, I don't talk to you. That's just how it works. So as I'm talking to you, we're good. But like so there was this moment. I think part of it was my dad dying. You know and I kind of came to I like I told you before I stayed so busy, so busy hunting and busy that I didn't want to deal with what really had happened. You know, I just know I lost my buddy like I told you before to me and I lost my buddy and I just I didn't I didn't want to deal with it. I didn't want to face the music you know or face the facts or you want to say it that my dad I was gone. And then a huge hole is in my heart that I can't like, I look at it like my heart's like a puzzle, I took a piece out and that piece is a certain looking piece, it looks a certain way, and no one is going to put that piece back in my heart the same way, you know, my metaphorical heart and my physical heart, obviously, but like, no one's going to put that piece of puzzle piece back in my heart the same way my dad could put it back in there. And it's never going to be that way. And so I i ranted to my aunts and my uncles and different family members trying to fill that void with a puzzle piece that didn't fit in there and build some of it, some of the gaps, but there's still these gaping wounds and holes in there that that are never going to be repaired. But you so so there was that and I had went for like a year and a half. And I didn't deal with it didn't do that. And then I went in a year and then it was about two and a half years in maybe something like that. It was just like this. It just started because I kept kept compartmentalizing everything, just putting it away. By putting it away, don't deal with it, just do something else. So as I started another business and just stay busy, and I bought a car dealership stayed busy and I, I started another business stay busy. I was going hunting, I was in Alaska multiple times I was out west, I was at my ranch, I was just staying away from be honest, staying away from my wife stayed away from my kids, because I didn't know how to deal with it, I'd come home and everything would just slow down. And I had to start dealing with these emotions that I didn't want to deal with. And that was the that was my hardest thing ever in my life, like by far and so I got to the point where I started having panic attacks. I woke up one night in my heart, I'm checking my pulse. I'm like checking, you know, oh my gosh. And I'm counting and I'm 140 just sitting there, sitting on the side of my bed doing 140. And I'm like, and I'm an athlete. I know my pulse right now. I know when I'm 55 resting heart rate, you know, I'm saying like, I know, you went sleep and I might even be in the 40s you know, high 40s low 50s. So I'm like something right? And so Okay, right? Then your anxiety picks in kicks in and you're like more and you're like, I'm dying. I gotta be dying, something's you know, you don't know, until there's these and I'm sharing these intimate experiences with you. And if it doesn't somebody, that's fine, but like, so. So I had that happen to me one night. And so I was in tears. I won't lie to you. I was it was, you know, it was like this just crushing me. And I couldn't figure it out, bro. And I was like, and you don't and you want to call somebody but who do you call your dad's gone? Right? So you can't call your dad my mom and my mom were that tight, you know? So, you know, I couldn't call my mom. Sorry, it was crazy.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:12:43
I'm so proud of you, Chris.
Chris Kaman 1:12:46
Um, so I can't call my mom and I'm just like, my dad's gone. So I call my brother and my brother's like my brother's like, he had just kind of went through some anxiety stuff. And he had been taking these pills and seeing these doctors. And so I won't even I was I should have told you to take a break. But we'll just keep going.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:13:09
Maybe we gotta get this, this is good.
Chris Kaman 1:13:12
So I call my brother and he's like, you know, he's like, I know what you're going through. You know, I had this about two years ago. So I didn't have nothing. I had no way to cope with this. I know what to do. But I didn't know what to do. So I just started praying about it, too. That was very helpful. Because I think during my prayer, I think that keeping my brain kind of quieter. And getting me to a more of a humble position. kind of helped me slow my brain dials slow my thoughts down. And I got to the point where I was like, you know, so so that was like very helpful, but there was still this it was still I was still struggling man now, then two or three nights in a row, I woke up and I was like I got I just sat on the toilet. Because I thought you know when you're nervous people don't know this, but you go to this fight or flight stage. And basically, I feel like you're calling out of your skin this anxiety picks up. And so you're just like, you like you feel like, like, you know if you'd like me to try the bus. So if you run real hard to sprint, and you drink a coffee and like you got to crap real bad. Yeah, I'm not trying to be funny. But it's like, it felt like I had to go to the bathroom all the time. Like I just had this this my my whole body was just like in a state of like, I can't get it out of there. I can't get it out of there. And you know and I can say a lot of this probably comes from our old men passing a lot of it's probably from them to retire not knowing what to do from not knowing how to be a good dad or good husband cuz I played basketball so long. And I never was able to learn how to be a dad right away. It just kind of hit me we had all these kids all of a sudden now we have three now. Beautiful babies and so now I've learned and it has taken me a lot of bumps and bruises and hits and a lot of tears and a lot of prayer and a lot of conversations and you know and I find for me at Those moments those heightened moments breathing is very helpful. I got a nice in my nose out of my mouth, I just sit and I shut my eyes for like 30 minutes and I just breathe and people don't realize that like you ever go like like that's very helpful but you don't understand people to calm your central nervous that your autonomic nervous system down by taking you out of that fight or flight mode and turn you into a sympathetic versus parasympathetic versus sympathetic nervous system response. I learned all this through this struggle. Gosh, dang you Timmy. But no, it's okay. It's okay. Um, so then I had these moments where I was like that, and I started to breathe a little bit. And like I said, I started to do some praying. And then, you know, I didn't have a point where I was on my knees praying, because I felt like I was trying to humble myself more because of this. You know, I thought maybe there was some some arrogance involved with it, because I'm this NBA player who played 13 years and made $100 million, and blah, blah, blah, and I'm this big, you know, tough guy, but the reality was, I wasn't a tough guy, and I was just some, you know,
Tim DiFrancesco 1:16:06
person with a beautiful soul and
Chris Kaman 1:16:09
but, um, some just regular Joe, to me, that's how I want to be Yeah, that's me, too. I like to work outside, I want to be regulatory. That's why I don't like social media. It's why I don't want to be involved in that stuff. So at that moment, I was able to start calming myself down a little bit. So that I went to my doctor, I have a doctor that I go to see just a regular MD, you know, he's just a family practitioner. And his name is Bill. And I said, Bill, I'm struggling, you know, like, I think again, I was in tears in his office and I I'm a I'm a man, right? We always everybody says, oh, man, don't you know, they shed tears, you know, but they do. I mean, it's real. We're humans, we are humans, we have our emotions. And so I'm not some tough guy, I won't lie to you. I'm not some tough guy. I don't care what kind of show I put on, I'm just not some tough guy. I'm just a regular guy. And I just did a cool job for 13 years, you know, that's kind of how I look at it, I was able to do a really cool job and, and, and get paid a lot of money to do it and hopefully I entertained enough people and hopefully I was instrumental in it for me I've learned now hopefully I impacted enough younger younger players lives today. Even just one of them you know, just that they were able to have a better you know, stretch of life to the NBA that they played in but so all that being said so I started I went to see my doctor I said Bill and I was in tears I said I don't know what to do, man. I think some die and I think I got cancer I got something's wrong. So I was having these headaches and so I wouldn't get an MRI that was fine I had I have my livers bad I wouldn't get MRI that was just all this anxiety to start to pick up and I I just said you know like you're not going to be I just told my son you're not going to beat me it's just not you know that's not I'm not I don't know that I'm a fighter you know, I go down I don't go down there I just kept saying you know, you're fine. You're fine. I kept get all these tests I must have I must have had six, five or six MRIs to CT scans all in like a year and a half because I thought every one of the tests has kept coming back like oh, you're good, you're good. You're good and the doctor would just laugh at me he's like, What do you want Chris? like kind of like I felt so guilty on him and bugging him because he gave me a cell number because he you know he's a really good guy and and I just felt so guilty call him because I didn't know no other way so then he set me up he gave me some pills um you as you know I'm pretty anti drug anti pill and so i i If it works and it's healthy like a Tylenol there's a trade off there's a trade off with a with a with an Advil there's there's they're all trade offs. But what are they? Is it the trade off worth it? Sure. It sometimes it is you get a monster headache, that's fine. But like most the time I try to do things on my own, I'll go real long periods without antibiotics, and I'll get real sick. And then I'll end up taking it you know, like, I'm just stubborn. And so I don't like pills. We gave these pills. And I just started putting one in and it would just make me like, oh, just like out of it, you know, just crushed me out. So I call my brother. This is a over a year and a half period, but I call my brother. It was bad. In the beginning. It was hard. And it was just it was awful. But like, you know, it was it was it was needed. I believe it was needed for me to get to where I'm at now to strengthen and build my character and to be a better dad and a better husband and a better friend. And you know, and so my brother called me I call my brother I said Mike, I got one brother. I told you he's older and I said Mike What do I do is these pills are crushing. They're making me so tired. He said just cut them into a quarter and take a quarter. So I started taking these quarters and it just take it would take enough to take the anxiety edge off. And so I'm not saying pills are for everybody. They're not for everybody. So but I was so mad at myself. I didn't want to take those pills. I hate pills. And there's a trade off whether we know what it is Alzheimer's or whatever all these trade offs Parkinson's, I don't know what they are. But there is a trade off in in so I just I hate it. And so I said Mike, my brother, I said Mike, I gotta get off these pills. At some point though. I said I'll use them for now. So I use the quarter and I just take a quarter once a day and it would be fine and then it just take one right before bed so I can asleep, because I wasn't getting any sleep which you know how that goes no HGH production or cortisol, the whole deal. Cycle. Yeah, the cycle was just my circadian rhythm was just jacked. My sleep wake cycle was just jacked. And so I took these, they were helpful. And then I started then as I said, Bill, my doctor, I said, I need something different, I need something I can do without these drugs. So then I went to see the shrink, his name's cherry, awesome, awesome guy, I'm not really a shrink guy. I don't really like telling people my stuff. Because I'm proud and I'm a big, strong man, you know, you know, I try to keep that stuff to myself. And I'm not saying every man's gotta go talk to a shrink. And I went through this stage of mental health awareness, where I was like, I gotta tell people about this, but I've since kind of grown out of that too, and just been able to kind of get through it. But um, so I saw Jerry and through talking and then more praying and more, just talking to my brother and some other people, I was able to get off the pills. And you know, it's not like some clap your hands moment. Haha. But it was like, I haven't taken those bills in like three years now. And, and I've been able to cope with it. I feel like I got through that. But But bro, I'm telling you.
You the Washington, Dwayne Wade was on Oprah, one of them Eleanor Malone shows, and he's talking about how he's gonna get a shrink because he was about to retire. It's real. And it's real. Unless you're like, some driven freak, you know, which are rare breeds. You know, it's gonna be hard for everybody. I mean, you see, these guys kill themselves, and they overeat, and they're out of shape. And they die. I mean, so many guys are dying out of the NBA when they're in their 50s and 50s. And, and it's just crazy. And it's uncalled for. And it's something that I personally think that needs to have some attention brought to it, you know, and so, not telling my story to say, I didn't even intend to get into this with you.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:21:46
We're honored, Chris. And I mean, I'm just, you're not a big hugger? I am, I give you a big ol bear hug right now, if I could, and, you know, I, you know, Phil would fill a jump in on that too. And hand, you know, we're just, this is really, I mean, what you just did, right? There is I don't know if people realize how hard that is. Because especially you are a private person, you you, you know, that's part part of what you know, how you operate. And, you know, for you to, for you to open up about that in this. You know, it means a lot. And I'm so proud of you.
Chris Kaman 1:22:24
Yeah, I appreciate it. And I didn't intend, I thought we were talking about basketball. So
Phil White 1:22:30
this is, you know, this is being basketball strong. That's the name of this podcast, because it's being it's part of it is you're being uniquely yourself,
Chris Kaman 1:22:38
and your friendship was watching or listening that I didn't get on here, to sit here and be some poor sad that for me, because I'm blessed. I was able to play 13 years in a league that barely anybody in the world, if you're going percentage wise, is able to do I was able to meet some really awesome people, I still maintain relationships with a lot of people. A lot of people I don't for various reasons, but like it, it was I told you, it was probably the one of the hardest things I've ever done was to retire. I mean, it was and that all goes with it. You miss that camaraderie you miss that you miss people helping you being honest, you miss people holding your hand, when you don't have someone to hold your hand, you got to figure everything out on your own. And there's been some people in the last five years who who've my financial guy, he's one of my best friends. Tom, he's been like, just a awesome lifesaver for me just been able to do it. My brother, my doctor, buddy, Bill, like just somebody, my neighbor, Matt, like, there's, I'm not saying shout outs or anything. I'm just saying, I just come to my mind. But these people have been so helpful for me to get to our court system. Yeah. And, and most of all, my wife, you know, but the thing about this is, is I'll just say this, and I'll leave it alone as unless you guys have some more questions. But the thing about it is, something's got to change one about the retirement players to unless you have been through this anxiety, depression, whatever people call this scenario, I just struggle unless you have been through this, you'll never understand it. And so if you have a spouse, or a child, or a relative who's going through it, the best thing my wife did for me was just be patient and just supportive. Nothing, she didn't run me down. She didn't, you know, she didn't do anything like that. She was just like, we'll get through it, honey, you know, we'll get through it. And so for me, that was like, that was what works, you know, like, just support and she may not have the right words to say or they may not, they may not or him or her may not. And so they may not have those words that you need, but just to know that they're like, Hey, I don't know what you're going through. I don't have that experience. So it's nice to talk to someone like my brother who did, but it's also hard to my wife to know that she's, hey, I got kids. I got the stuff at home, just to get through it. And so it took me some time and this is the last thing I'll say about it. I sat in my room in my house and not my Roomba like molten molten through my house for eight months. And what you do is you get to the spot where you're stuck. Yeah, best thing for you to do is to get out and go work and do stuff and try to deal with it slowly, rather than sitting in your room or your office or your living room and have it come crashing in on you all at once. And this like voice like, Hey, you're gonna deal with this all now all of it? Well, the best thing to do is to stay busy working, and just slowly deal with it. But a lot of people don't know how to do that. And so you see a lot of people killing themselves. You see a lot of people medicated, over medicating, drugging, you see, a lot of people stuck in these moments that they don't know how to get out. And it's because they're just stuck. I was in my room in my house for eight months. And just what do I do today? What do I do walking around looking at? What do I do? And how do I get out of this, and it was just this, I was just stuck. And like I said, I got to the point where I'm here today, by the grace of God, and friends help. And so I don't know, I don't know another way other to deal with it than what I've just expressed. And so if there's anybody who's struggling, I mean, it's always nice to talk to somebody, you know, that's kind of the biggest thing.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:26:06
Well, Chris, I mean, you've just done right there in in a matter of the last 25 minutes or so, you're sharing that, uh, you've just inspired people. And I, you've inspired me just listening to you. Because listen, if we go back, and we listen to what you told us and embedded within the story that you were so raw about, and so open about, which is so just beautiful, you know, but what's embedded in there, you said, I'm a fighter, you this is not going to beat me, I'm going to find a way everybody has that ability, everybody can be a fighter, if they make that choice. And they choose that you, you you, you know and you demonstrate it, you know, you talked about the strategy of using breathing to help you get through it, you and to be able to still use that strategy, your support system, you know, your your incredible, beautiful wife, Emily, who I know very well. And you know how you know just how, you know big of a role she played with such an easy approach to it of just saying I'm here, I don't know what this is about, but how much that you know, helped you and then the other people that you leaned on within that. There's just absolute gold within what you just talked through. And I'm just so I'm just absolutely so proud of you for going through that finding a way and when something didn't quite work, you went back to the well, and you said let me try something different. And then you put it all together. So
Chris Kaman 1:27:34
you know, the big thing at first was I tried to hide it. Yeah. I didn't want anybody to know, I was going through that. Yeah, I didn't want to have to experience my struggle and had to struggle with me, because I knew what the struggle was like. And so I hit it, but the best thing to do is to not hide it the best thing to do, get out there, get in some sunlight, keep moving, talking to people, and I'll tell you what, boy, something to be said about some sunlight. Right? You know, honestly, so powerful. Yeah, we bought a place in Arizona just for that reason. Yeah.
Phil White 1:28:07
Chris, you talked there a little bit about humbling yourself and being down on your knees. And you know, you and I share our faith. And that's powerful. And I read, you know, preparation TD and if not messing around with our prep for this. We want to almost out prepare each other kind of a little fun side game we got going but read some interviews that you did with our friends at the FCA, the Federation of Christian Athletes. Can you talk to us a little bit of the role of your faith in this particular struggle and other tough times in your life? And how that's been a bedrock for you?
Chris Kaman 1:28:39
Yeah, I mean, I think going back to what I've talked about earlier, in the beginning of our conversation about not going and doing those things, when I first got an MBA and making that choice, part of that choice was I was raised pretty strict Christian home. And I was raised pretty strict rules, you know, like following the rules in and I wouldn't say it's some total totalitarian, you know, household but it was, it was pretty strict doing this a certain way. And so I kind of tried to stay that way. And then I kind of assumed my own style later on a little bit more, maybe my own way. But always nice to have my you know, that was another thing that me and my dad had a pretty good healthy religious conversations, bouncing stuff off of each other back and forth. And so, you know, going into the NBA that was part of my reason why I stayed away from some of those things to kind of felt like some of those things weren't were would have gotten me closer in my relationship with the almighty wouldn't be me going to a strip club and watching a bunch of women prance around with no clothes on I felt like that would have separated me and my relationship with the Almighty. So I tried to stay away from some of those things and I didn't want my mind to be altered through alcohol to where I didn't understand everything that was going on around me. I wanted to be a control freak a little bit. So a lot of it so I wanted to be in control of the situation and know that when I call you know when I call All my family and they, they know that I'm doing good that I meant it, you know, and like when I was, you know, standing firm on not doing certain things that people knew I meant it, then by the time my third fourth year, people left me alone, and it was easier. But that was part of my, you know, my upbringing. And so I carried that with me, I think through the MBA. And then it also, like I said, before, to TD in us is just that it, it helped me get through some of those hard times by being able to have another source of trust to turn to you know, and another, you know, another place to take some of those those difficult times away. And that's like I said before, to that isn't for everybody, you know, a relationship with God, it not everybody agrees and believes the same way. And that's okay. I don't push myself on nobody and, and I just try to live my life the way that I think is right for me and my family. And, and people I know. And back to the social kind of thing. There's so many voices and so many opinions on there, because everybody has their own processes. So sometimes, for young people, it can be hard to know which way to turn in. And so as a parent, it's important to be in your power, this is a thing that I think a big thing too, is I'm just gonna say it is you got to be in your kids business. Like don't your kids don't, don't go to your room and get on your phone. And there's this this, this clip I have is like eight or nine kids at a big table. And there's food on the table. And every one of them has their phones in their faces and their phones. And it's a quote by Albert Einstein said, I fear that the day that human interaction, something about a fear of the day that technologies exceeds our human interaction. And it's a picture of all that it will have a generation of idiots. And it has a picture of all these kids at the table on their phones, no, and there could be communicating with each other, but rather, they're on their phones talking to the guy next to him on his phone, instead of talking to you know, and so it's this thing for me is the same way be in your kids business. Make sure you know what your kids are watching. Make sure you're screening the calls they're getting in the text message groups, and the social media stuff. teen suicides is quadrupled in the last
Phil White 1:32:06
10 years. Yeah, and self harm, you know, preteen girls with body image issues, harming themselves. And we're not talking about 17 year olds, we're talking about nine year olds, like you said,
Chris Kaman 1:32:19
I got a 10 year old in my family. I'm not gonna say who it is supposed to be. But it's a girl. And she cuts herself at 10 years old. And I and then I think to myself, Well, gosh, how do I let my kids spend time with her? You know, if there's a family party, or if she's around him, I worry, you know, like, because she learned it from somewhere, right? And learn behaviors in this world that are healthy, and there's a lot that are unhealthy. And so can I cuddle my kid and put them in a bubble with plastic wrap everywhere and a ventilator? Sure, but like, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm just trying to make sure I know what my kids doing. And there's nothing wrong with it. I don't want them to have a cell phone, I want to play outside, I wanted to go play. I don't want him to sit on a computer. I don't want him to sit on a video game. I want him to do things. But I also want to make sure that he the things he's doing because he's seven, or he's eight, or he's nine or 10 year olds don't know what they're doing. They don't have a reason to have a social media, they don't understand this stuff. And that's why these parents that are loose, they let their kids let this run rampant in their homes. social medias are 10 year olds and cell phones was group texting with 10 people on there. I mean, it's just there's something to be said about taking care of your kids. And I feel like our nation, you know, because your the way you raise your kids is the way that they're going to raise their their kids and a little bit looser, most likely. And so I don't have all the studies and the science behind it. I just look at what's going on in the world. And I look at what I want in the world 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and I see how is this slowly progressed. And I look at the common denominators, video games, social media, internet access television, like, kids didn't have these problems when they're playing outside and in, you know, building forts and doing that wasn't a problem. It's slowly become a problem. And it's not the end of the world, there's a place for it. But it's the place isn't for 10 year olds, nine year olds and 12 year olds, it's for adults who can understand emotions and understand, you know, feelings in in a in a text setting and like, understand how you can get on the phone call this person and see what they're talking about. Like not, hey, my life's perfect. Come look like me. If you don't kill yourself, like I mean, I'm not saying that's what it is. But I'm exaggerating hard on it, but it's just sad because it's scary because and I keep talking about this because I gotta raise my kids. And I gotta do this, right? Because that's my job as a parent to protect my child. But like, I want to go into my kid's room. I want to see what they're playing with. I want to see what they're doing. And if you don't, then you probably should, you know, don't get to get into the sock drawer and look at like, what's the bottom of it, but like, it's not about
Phil White 1:34:54
being a spy, but it's about not it's about not abdicating because ultimately you Wow, the adult in the room, so be the adult in the room.
Chris Kaman 1:35:03
And you see too many times these children disrespect their parents, and the parents like, Oh, that's not nice. And they just keep going their knees. I mean, gosh, I'm so old school boundaries,
Phil White 1:35:14
boundaries, discipline, accountability has to be something
Chris Kaman 1:35:18
needs to be a level of discipline. I'm not saying spank your kids, that's not what I'm saying. I've seen something other than, Oh, that wasn't nice. And then just go about, like, go ahead and keep doing it, you know, like, or, you know, you just, I'm sad, because I feel like we're too far past fixing this. And I don't know what to do, really, you know, for my kids, other than trying to do the best I can with what I know, with what I got between me and my wife and what we think is right and best, you know, and Pete, most people are going to call me a square. And most people are gonna say that I'm the root of the problem. But I can look at, you know, the last 30 years and see the changes and look where they came from, and look what's here and what's not. And kids don't play outside anymore. Kids don't build forts. Don't go to the beach, kids don't play tag. Kids don't play, you know, basketball side much. I mean, there's some things they do. But a lot of those things that we used to do, they don't do. What's weird,
Phil White 1:36:15
is all take my kids to play the elementary school where they went and Matt Cormier that who just retired as the principal of that school, the best leader I've ever seen, I've been around some pretty good leaders, coaches and such. And we still go back to that school to play outdoors several times a week. And unless it's a couple of the kids whose parents or teachers are on the playground, those courts are empty or growing up, we have to walk or run two and a half to three miles each way, because that was the only outdoor basketball court and this was before I started. And again, put this in context, like National League in England is not the same as playing pro ball here. But that was a different deal. But that was the only court if we had had access to this court. And it's just a regular elementary school playground with we have six hoops of vet, you know, the shortest one is like six and a half, seven feet, or eight foot rim, you're nine foot which is fine having a six foot or six foot one freshman who's starting to get up a little bit. It's almost like taking the cat out is in the pole vault and you know, raising the bar every time but yeah, there is nobody there. There is nobody there after school. There is nobody there in the summer. If we had had that I would have lived about I would have pitched a freakin tent. So thankful. And the same tennis courts like you didn't, my dad managed to save up the money to pay for membership of that tennis club one year when it first started and the memberships were super cheap. And then it got ritzy and it got your kind of you know, yacht club type people in there, and they put the memberships up like five 6x. And that was like, Well, that was the end of that. But even now, people don't realize in the US like the rest of the world. Europe included the soccer goals as as we would call it football goals. And there's rugby posts everywhere and green patches. We don't have tennis courts outdoors that are public access. We do not have public access basketball courts in the UK, or at least 20 years ago, I would would have killed for that. I would have killed for that. And now there's no one there and why is that? It's exactly what you just said.
Chris Kaman 1:38:23
Maybe that's why England best wares are so terrible because there's
Unknown Speaker 1:38:27
a man we have to do. Oh dang, come on now.
Chris Kaman 1:38:30
Oh, you're gonna claim that yeah, you're
Phil White 1:38:32
today look at his passport, bro. It says gee, he may have come from the Sudan. But we're going to claim that man
Chris Kaman 1:38:38
has played against some of the best players in the world. And there isn't too many from the old Great Britain.
Unknown Speaker 1:38:45
John and John Ameche, dude, come on.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:38:48
He, this has been a pleasure. I know you've got stuff to head on out to to give us this time is something that we are grateful for. And we've just, you've inspired me, I know that listeners will be inspired. And Phil, and I just really appreciate you very much. You're a special human being. I've known that for a long time. And I think people who listened will now know that just as much.
Chris Kaman 1:39:13
Thank you, and I'm happy that I got the opportunity. So thank you.
Tim DiFrancesco 1:39:22
Thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed today's show, and we hope you did. Please give us a good review on Apple podcasts or whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. And so you never miss a weekly episode, be sure to subscribe and follow. You can find previous episodes on our show website. That's www dot basketball strong podcast.com. For more basketball performance resources, and nagging injury solutions, follow me on Instagram at TD athletes edge and follow Phil at Phil white books. Until next week's episode Stay basketball strong
