David Hollander: How Basketball Can Save the World

David Hollander  00:07

Only other sports are about speed and force pushing past that vertical line that goal strikes on a touchdown. Basketball is different.

Tim DiFrancesco  00:22

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the basketball strong Podcast. I'm Tim DeFrancesco, former LA Lakers strength and conditioning coach and Doctor of Physical Therapy, and I'm here with my co host, Emmy nominated writer and author Phil white. This podcast is not just for basketball junkies, it's for anyone who loves to hear the human stories behind great people, while learning the science behind preparing your body for the court and high performance. This episode is sponsored by where testers if you've ever bought a pair of basketball shoes only to realize once you go hooping that it's the wrong fit, then you know, where testers.com is a website that will help you to avoid getting the wrong pair because they provide real reviews from real Hooper's. Literally the co founders Chris and drew are out there hooping in shoes to write detailed reviews before you drop your time and money on your next pair visit where testers.com That's w e a r t s t r s.com Or follow them on YouTube to make sure you're getting the right shoe for your foot. Today's guest David Hollander takes us deep beyond the arc and chairs how basketball can save the world. David Hollander is a renowned professor and academic leader at NYU and his new book, how basketball can save the world is on pre order now, you can visit the link in the show notes and description to preorder your copy today. Let's get into the conversation. David sometime around March 2019, you were named assistant dean at NYU. And then at that same time shortly thereafter, as I understand it started to finalize the syllabus for our class called how basketball can save the world. My first thing that comes to mind is where, where and when did that first begin to be an idea of yours? To make it into a class and ultimately even more than that?

David Hollander  02:19

Yeah, probably around like seven years old. I've been thinking about why this thing is so compelling to me why I can't stop shooting why like do you know just one more shot mom, before I come in, and one more shot after that. Then one more after that. And I think you know, as I as I progressed in life and and became a professor at a major research one institution and which is also just, you know, a shock I you know, I really wanted to to intellectualize what I had already intuited, which was there was something about this game, that gives me peace, that gives me balance that makes my relations with other people, right. And if I could articulate that, if I could put language on it, I actually thought that maybe we could solve some problems in the real world. Wow.

Tim DiFrancesco  03:28

So you go back as far as seven years old there take us into a little bit of that youth basketball journey of then where and how and what that looked like for you and after your playing days with all were over. You weren't done with the game. So take us through that.

David Hollander  03:43

My dad put a 12 foot by 12 foot blacktop in our backyard and put up real hoop you know not like a shell hoop like square backboard, you know, two stanchions and, and my older brothers, two older brothers, you know, they're just playing all the time banging against each other. And I just wanted in and so you know, fast forward. I mean, my My older brother is the leading scorer was the leading scorer in our high school history for a long time. Before three point shots were four freshmen could play it, he went and played internationally my sister's 1000 points 1000 assists, I hold one record in my high school. That's most technical fouls in the season.

Tim DiFrancesco  04:36

The machine, the Rasheed Wallace of, of your, your high school,

David Hollander  04:40

emotional leader. And so you know, I just, but I, you know, I love the game. And I played anywhere. I went for the rest of my life wherever I was in the world, and that's almost seven continents. And I've never let go of it. As as a, you know, I mean I've played in, you guys won't believe this, but I played in chucks up until only like a few years ago, because that's all my dad would let us wear. And this was around the time they started making leather sneakers, ponies started coming out. Kids were spending, like, whatever was $20 on sneakers, my dad's like, that's crazy. You don't need that. And I never actually felt comfortable playing anything else until like, you know, basically just broke every disc in my back. You know? That's just how I respect the basic, you know, the basic basicness of this game. To me, it's not about the NBA, it's not about anything else, but people on the court with a ball.

Phil White  06:01

Yeah, talk to us a little bit about what you've said previously in other interviews about what makes basketball accessible and why that, then obviously, connecting the dots between your initial love of the game in the course, some of the factors, you started to identify about why this sport is so compelling for people even of limited means in remote areas.

David Hollander  06:23

Yeah. And I didn't know how true all that was. As far as what James Naismith actually intended, he wanted it to be as accessible as possible. He wanted it to be as easy to play as possible. He insisted on gender inclusion. Right at the beginning, when just a couple of weeks into it, they were like, Hey, can we play these women are watching The guys play pickup and he was like, Yeah, of course. He saw it, not as a money making thing but as a global, almost like a social construct, for people to walk into. And kind of behave better, be better people after that exercise. Just like yoga aligns you you know, your chakras your mind, body and soul. So, some basketball as you saw basketball is a ritualistic exercise to relieve people of the the cramped, industrialised, lack of ownership of their lives of their property, and it gave them space to have that ownership have that creativity. So yeah, I didn't get to all the different principles of, of no barrier to access sanctuary, Transcendence, the fact that this is a game where the goal is elevated, the goal is elevated and vertical. So you in horizontal, so you must be under control, there has to be a balance of force and skill. Arc, you know, all the other goals and all the other games, by the way, I love other sports and you know, you learn great things from all of them. But all the other sports are about speed and force pushing past that vertical line that goal strikes on that touchdown. Basketball is different.

Tim DiFrancesco  08:40

It definitely is. And you've said speaking of other sports, you've talked about the idea that you admit and and handover soccer as being the world's most popular sport, but then said also that basketball is its most influential. Why do you talk more about that?

David Hollander  08:59

Yeah. There's no question. That's the more people play soccer than anything else in the world. It's had a bit of a head start that way. It's also true that probably more people play cricket by sheer numbers, right. But if you look at the influence that basketball has had on race, because of its accessibility, particularly the issue of the core issue of race and the unreconciled issue of race in America, if you look at the influence basketball has had on immigration. It was meant as such, because there never been more immigrants at the time that Naismith created the game so Jews Catholics who weren't having a good time in the US, create a parallel structures Catholic schools For now, like, you know, the best basketball or perennially powerhouses Jews were the early pioneers of motion offense and things like that. 

And then you saw it repeated in Canada, with the where the country that takes the most refugees and immigrants, basketball became the most galvanizing force in the country, then I mean, who can deny the cultural influence of basketball, the music, right? Goes and hip hop and basketball, go hand in hand and come from the same source of social resistance, playground basketball and hip hop, which produced sneaker culture, which just completely revolutionized took over footwear industry. These are all true things. These are just a few. But take Paris, St. Germont. vaunted soccer brand, one of the great soccer teams in the world. They go with the Jumpman logo now on their kids, and on there, because they want to be cooler have more relevance. So they go to bed to a basketball brand. I mean, think about that. That is Wow, crazy.

Phil White  11:27

Yeah, very interesting. Talk to us a little bit more about what you said that the game personally provided you with a sense of sanctuary from from the time you were a kid. And as you said, just one more shot Mom, just one more shot, take us a bit more into that. That personal journey, even when you weren't racking up those technicals in school and you were just out there shooting by yourself?

David Hollander  11:50

If Phil, I really appreciate that question. And, you know, it's like it's almost it's, uh, you know, we all have our, our, where we're from, and where we've been, and what's happened to us. And so whatever. Whatever pain I was carrying around, whatever misfit sadness, I may have felt, it was a space where I could imagine a whole world, suspend reality, but still be real still be here. Feel, feel my whole selves, almost like dance or ballet right now. Just playing, feeling. You know, having that kind of self actualization. Whether it was alone or with others, it meant a lot to me to have that language to speak. If I went to a park and joined others, it meant a lot to just, and that's the other thing about basketball. My other one of my other principles is it's an antidote to isolation and loneliness. It's one of the few things few sports you can do by yourself. And that's, we need that. We need that thing to take us out of us. Take us out of our heads, and connect us to others without having to try so hard. So many barriers, so many, you know, just to be able to walk to that space and be like, Yeah, I got an X with you guys. Okay, that's how it works here. Yeah, you're next.

Tim DiFrancesco  13:54

I love that I never it just sort of pushed it into my face that that is it is one of the sports that you can do basically, fully in its entirety of, of the fundamentals of the game anyways, in by yourself, I mean, just just just grab a ball and play the game. And were there things in those developmental years and as in your upbringing, that you were needing refuge from that, that the game provided?

David Hollander  14:24

Yeah, just, you know, my feelings. You know, the, the, the unbearable, lightness of being the the love, hate, sorrow, pressure, you know, sprawling ambiguity of life. I mean, all of it. It was just too much for a kid like me. And so I needed that. I needed that. That house of worship. You mentioned

Phil White  15:05

earlier off camera that you'd had kind of a winding path to teaching so so you go to law school for don't end up practicing law. And then we have stops in music, and film. And as you said, it came as a complete shock when suddenly you find yourself at NYU some years later. So could you take us into a little bit that kind of the early days of that journey, say from, you know, high school through college, and then you got out of college, out of law school, in fact, but then, again, take on several professions that maybe have little to do with the practice of law.

David Hollander  15:44

You know, there's a great old saying, those all those who wander are not lost. But that wasn't true about me. I was just like, you know, like a puppy still banging against walls. I guess, right, I went from law school, I didn't really even practice much for a year, just a little. And then I went straight into marketing and got involved in television, did a show for the New Jersey Nets and, and then started managing a band. I was a really bad manager, but for some reason that one of the good music venues we used to play at Orleans grocery, and said, Hey, would you get involved at us and it did, and, you know, started doing all kinds of live events, concerts and film festivals. And and then, I kinda took a left turn into sports writing. While I was like messing around in this New York City, nightlife. And I started interviewing famous athletes, and sports personalities for an alternative arts and culture weekly. Funny, the guy who gave me that Job was Matt Taibbi, who has become kind of a big writer for as many people know, Rolling Stone and other publications and and then i i became the first round of sports for The Huffington Post. And I just started kind of publishing a lot of work and, and then NYU I then I published a book of those interviews, and some memoir stuff. And NYU said, Hey, would you come and talk to our students? And I was like, me, you crazy. But they did. Let me come in, I did speak to the students. And I felt really good. And I felt like all the things that I had done, I give you the short version, but all the things that I've done up to that point that really led me to, to being able to share with young people and empower them to find their joy. teach them skills, yes, teach them how to, you know, how to learn how to succeed all those things, but you know, really, I get there's two places I find sanctuary. One is on the basketball court still. And now the other is, is the classroom. I feel I just feel perfectly again, separate from the world but in a space that is clock lists and, and incredible and magical. And I always feel exhausted and exhilarated and, and, and the journey we take and the connection we have. It's it's really, it's all led to this place. And I hope I do this till I die. Was that

Phil White  19:18

a full on Epiphany during that first talk with those students, or was it something where it went over? Well, they got some good feedback, they asked you back and it kind of developed over time.

David Hollander  19:30

On a practical level the ladder but it was an it was an epiphany was I came home, you know, and it wasn't a I was a guest speaker. So it wasn't really a class that I put together and I've I've learned a lot about teaching since that time. But it was an epiphany. It really it was a I came home and I said to my wife, I think this is this is what I Should we do? And I had never thought to do that ever before. Wow.

Tim DiFrancesco  20:11

Wow. And then to start to go or get that opportunity to get into it formally and then weave in the two places, or the two objects in your world now, that first, initially, there was one thing that was your sanctuary basketball, but now be able to weave those together. I'm just trying to figure out and understand when you started to actually put that into a syllabus, were you thinking, Okay, this is going to be what now we see it is where it's, I mean, if I understand it, right, like one of the most popular class corset classes in the entire university, or if you were like, Okay, let's give this a go. What was that all about? What was that, like?

David Hollander  20:57

So I'm on the faculty of the Sports Management, Department, it sports business, right to teach how to take this cultural form sports and make money off that I teach marketing consumer behavior. I mean, you know, the business. This course was always in my mind as a as a humanities course. You know, not, this isn't about business at all. In fact, when the book comes out, that they they have to make those decisions actually Amazon, how they, you know, what category they put it under? 

Or were if there are physical stores anymore, where they, you know, a shelf and it's not sports section, it's, it's under social science philosophy. Wow. And I don't mind being completely honest. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm a bit ruthlessly tactical and strategic in my presentation of, of products. And but yeah, I thought it would be real fast, one of the most popular courses at NYU, I knew that, first of all, on an educational level, I believe in meeting students where they are, and basketballs where they are. And if I could take that, and, and push into it, and find a way to articulate what they already know. But just help them see it and explore it. Then we could really kind of be on to something. I was influenced by a book I read 15 years ago called how soccer explains the world. For it was an influence. It wasn't like, Oh, I'm gonna book it for basketball, because he was he was explaining quite effectively to me. Through the world, the World Cup was happening. 

And this phenomenon called globalization was this what it was being called, and how the world is all going to work together. And, and Germans play soccer like this, and the British play soccer like this and the Argentinian. Yeah, so it was it was clever. But I really, I was like, No, man, there's like, I, I'd like to stop repeating the problems. I'd like to stop repeating the conflicts, I'd like to stop repeating the wealth inequality, all those things like it seems to keep cycling back and back and back. 

And and so the thesis was, well, what if we look to just a different source of ideas, you know, all we've been doing from millennium is looking at the same kinds of leaders, monarchs, economists, military types, politicians, lawyers, who have come up with the same kinds of isms, I call them, capitalism, socialism, communism, you name it, utilitarianism ways to structure make more fair, more efficient, more productive, more peaceful. And yeah, I started I started this course in summer, you know, like, 2018. 

And I've been thinking about before that, right. I mean, the, the world was already, to me, in a place to head increasingly more conflicted, more confused than ever before, and boom, COVID is, you know, and here now the Ukraine. I mean, we're doing the same How can we there's got to be a way to think differently. There's got to be so this is it's a provocation, right? People might be like, Oh, basketball, how can that be? That's crazy. You know, is it crazier than what we're doing now?

Tim DiFrancesco  24:57

Well, so get into that give give cuz, I mean, how, how does that happen? How does basketball interrupt a cycle?

David Hollander  25:08

I believe that I've pulled out 13 principles that I would call, like first principles, we have to return to some ideas that we believe are the new ways, or at least expressions of commonly shared ways that we might ought to. 

If we're going to have a plan, if we're gonna have policy, these are the you better check against these principles? And if you're not, like in line with these principles, then maybe you got a wrong policy, basic principles, cooperation, basic principle balance of the individual and the collective would not go into well in that department right now. I mean, cooperation, forget it, right? Nobody's has it ever been harder? Balance of individual collective, I'm not saying the individual shouldn't get what they deserve. I'm just saying, what's theirs? What's the right balance? And toward what end? What what's the point here? Really, is for me to leave you in the dust? 

Maybe it is, but I think, at least talk about the balance, talk about the balance of force and skill, I think we need to recognize new ways of leadership of of who's talented. Look, I'm like, you know, extroverted? Right? I can have the charisma and stuff like that. There's a lot of people that are really effective and really important. And they're not the power players. They're not the loud, they're not the, you know, the the A person, you know, so I believe in positionlessness. 

I believe that we have to stop saying you're this train for this. I believe that the world has taught us anything that's moving, it's changing all the time. And we need to change all the time. And that's okay. Like, I think that's the point. That's what being humans about this, the fun of it. And it sounds a lot to me, like something called the fast break. Where you're fluidly with others confronting constantly new facts and circumstances, and making a lot of decisions really fast. And the more you're able to do that, I think that's more akin to the human experience, then for me to be like, Okay, well, I'm running, I'm running the show here. Y'all stop, let's plan this thing. And you're not you're not getting out of this room, you know, like, you're, you're, you're this and we need to work on that. No, like, I may have to kind of go become this now. That's human alchemy. By the way, that's what basketball they say. Kept in chemistry. To me, it's about alchemy. It's about becoming something different. Not just working with others and, and you do this, that's, that's a different concept. To me, basketball changes people, when they interact with each other. I become an entirely different person on the basketball court, depending on who the four people are that are with me and the other five of them against. no barrier to access. 

Can we stop? Can we can we finally give everybody access to the things that a society says are important? Whatever you're talking about, like basic shit, food? How about like, you know, health care, education? What's important, tell me what's important to society. And all I'm saying is no barrier access for anyone? Is that a terrible idea? You know, these are these are hard to dispute these principles, and they all come from basketball, right? You know, like basketball was meant for the outsider. The other the mass is the fact that newcomers to societies always go to that thing that's easy to access. Because also it's intimate. It's small. I see you as a human being it's impossible. There's no we're playing in our underwear in the sport. Really, you know, 

we're really close to each other. It's not like the two sports that are the closest in movement, soccer and hockey. The defensive players don't spend a lot of time in the offensive part of the game. And there's the goalies have radically different powers of In this game, everybody does the same thing, and you’re going to run into each other. 

 it's not individual baseball, you might not touch another person in the entire game, you might not even come near them. So, you know, and then there's sanctuary, Transcendence. It's an urban and rural game. Beloved, in both places, beloved, in both environments, there's nothing beloved by or urban loves, lots of issues, rural lives, lots of issues. It's not working out right now. So you need you need this basic principle of like, what can we find in common to a real rural? What can we find this gender inclusives gender inclusion? Another one? What can we make? If you're going to make something you got to make it global? That's what Naismith did. I still don't understand how so many people in the world can be so hungry, and we have all the food we need to feed them. And we still can't figure out how to do that. I still can't understand how that can be a pandemic. Like that's it, right? We just went through it, where the world is like, everyone's going to die. And we couldn't figure out how to get together and stop it. And look in now right now with Ukraine. I mean, the world is being held hostage. We can't stop it. Because we don't know how, because if we do we think there might be a conflict that none of us get out alive. You know, there might be a nuclear conflict that like destroys the whole thing. How did the world get to a place where we, we can't stop something so horrible right before us. So I think there needs to be a whole new global thing with the nation states, it's not working. So these are the these all these things come from basketball, whether it was what they Smith intended, whether it's how it's operated in the world, or what the world has told us, it means, like, what it's done for immigration, what it's done for. So that's my, my, sorry, that was a big answer. But that's my thesis.

Tim DiFrancesco  32:19

That's what we're looking for right there.

Phil White  32:21

As you as your students are learning about all of these concepts, and they start giving you feedback, what are some eye opening things for them? What are some, some things that they even those that have a deep background in the game are surprised about?

David Hollander  32:37

Yeah, the the starts to see these concepts like to like, you know what, it really makes sense what you say like, actually, it is there, they it has continued to kind of help like newcomers, oh, wow, like, women played this before they could vote before they could, you know, that they start to realize that this kind of empathy, that, you know, 

when you play a pickup game with a total stranger, and you play for an hour, and then like game's over, you leave, and then weirdly, you maybe run into that person at a deli, you know, and you still know each other in the way that only people who’ve played fives do  people who've, like, done played fives, know each other. And it's just a little head nod to say like, yo, hey, these two people still don't know each other. But they trust each other. They understand each other, in a way that is wordless. That is communal. And I love when students start to I mean, I've had students write me, I give them it's a very large class of 140 people. So they have one paper and it's like, just give me a paper on basketball and blank. You fill in the blank and I give him like 40 examples, you know, but he said, you know, it can be basketball and Tunisia basketball, and you know, race, right? basketball sneakers, some people go. I've had people read Mr. Basketball on the dollar store, you know, basketball and the Dalai Lama, basketball and my mom, you know, like, like, they start to see how this thing has actually been operating in their lives in ways that now they appreciate quite deeply. And they're evangelizing for me, but really, for all of us, right? That's right. You know,

Tim DiFrancesco  35:00

That's right. So when did it? Did it become a idea for a book or an idea for a course first for you?

David Hollander  35:08

Oh, of course, I hadn't thought about as confident as I was that people would like it. I mean, you try, you put out something new, and you got to work really hard to, to I want to I saw the course, the 13 principles were evolving, which is a normal thing, when you test out a, of course, in some ways is like a thesis you have, you have a conceptual framework that you think is going to work and you go try it and you realize what's working, what's what's true, and what's not true. You know, it's, it's a, the academy that's really supposed to do explore truth. Students and teachers, that's the whole kind of like, you know, platonic, I think ideal and and so I, I wanted it to be a course. But I wanted to be experiential. I mean, the first, I tested it out as a summer course. And that summer, and I got students from six different schools at NYU, I got a dance student, I got like, an A student from the individualized study from Global Studies from like, you know, yeah, sports management, you know, a kid from Tulane and it just read about it was like, um, comment. Yeah. And we went to the cage, it was for St. We went up to, to Harlem. We went to the NBA was very supportive. And they got us VIP passes to the 2019 draft at Barclays Center. Wow. Yeah, it was great. It's so good. I mean, we were like, in the suite, you know, hanging out? Yeah, so we had wonderful experiences. I wanted to bring in filmmakers, authors, poets, opera singers. Yeah. And Hall of Famers. Oh, by the way, yeah. So we could I really wanted to, I want it to be like a salon, you know, like, prove me wrong, these 13 principles. There's Crazy, right, let's talk about let's see if it's true. And then when the pandemic it almost, like, dramatize it to another level, because now the world actually didn't need saving. Like, right, there was an acute world survival problem. And so it just became a journey, you know, as emotional. Every week, we have become separated. So, so I, I, and then the following fall that I mean, had already been in the CBS News and slam had done a thing. But then when, when the New York Times Kevin Armstrong wrote a 50 100 word feature. That was it, like people were calling, and writing and, and it became, it became a wonderful thing.

Tim DiFrancesco  38:13

Wow. Wow. And so the book, by the way, I think on preorder now. But in within a year, we'll we'll be able to get our hands on it.

David Hollander  38:21

That's right. That's right. It'll be it'll be February 2023. Harmony, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House, that that's where you can find it. It's called How basketball save the world.

Tim DiFrancesco  38:37

Amazing. I cannot wait for that. D is there a is there a principle of the 13 that you feel like best applies to? Or if applied to properly to the conflict, the tragic conflict in in the Ukraine and what's going on there that that would best fit for creating some level of solution there.

David Hollander  39:06

So, yes, yes. The first principle is cooperation. And I mean, just the the, I mean, from, from Putin himself, to the entire construct of, of, of nations that think the only way they can do well is for other nations not to do well. That's not how it works. It can't We can't go on like that. We can't the other so cooperation is just a very basic kind of fork in the road that you choose to take as a consciousness when you wake up in the morning, you're either going to find ways to work it out or you're not. You know, the other The concept is make it global. Then the other principles called Make it global. We Zelinsky when he spoke to Congress, and he said, you know, right now we don't have a way to stop this acknowledged it, he said, there's, we need a new way a new coalition, he said, of, of, you know, nations of peoples to stand against to stand for peace to stand for a new way of being. And I'll tell you, a guy like him and the rest of his countrymen and women. They're good people to listen to, because it's all quite clear, and reduced to life and death now for them, and they can tell us, what's really important in this life is to kind of stop doing this. You know, and so, I think we have to, you have to, we have to have a starting place of some global agreement. You know, and so I would apply those two principles. And then the last principle is called transcendence. Which is, you know, you can't stop, you can't keep saying this is not possible. You can't keep saying this is too hard. You can't keep saying this is, you know, there's no way out of this. We have to envision a new way. That's not in front of our face. That's bigger than what we're what we've been thinking about. And that's the, that's the Dr. J. Consciousness, right? That's the consciousness. To, to be like, actually on the ticket to this place that no one's ever taken it to before I'm going to break the rules, I'm going to go higher. It's a basketball concept. And if there was ever a time in human history, where we must get beyond kind of the old ideas, it's now yeah, it's,

Tim DiFrancesco  42:19

it's it's sorry, it's, it's a little bit. Steph Curry, right. I mean, because Steph said, No, I'm shooting this front. When I step over half court, we're opening this game up and if curry is gonna stand there and throw his hands up at what I'm doing here, and then suddenly watch the ball, go through the net and say, Okay, I guess I can argue it. It's a little bit of that too, because you kind of maybe Nash, maybe Nash edia had the not been so self less. He does that first, but I think Korea just took it and ran with it. Right.

David Hollander  42:54

Well, that's, you know, it's, it's a yes. Right. So he and, and Nash and Dan Tony, and those guys, they were like, you know, we're gonna do it differently. We're gonna do this, like, you know, position this in space, kind of game. And, and when you talk about that, you kind of think about Nana, she think about curry. But you always must think about Draymond. You know, like, there ain't no curry without no drink, take take JM on a lineup, check the record. You know, and it's, it's, it's, that's the beauty of basketball. There's a dignity in what Draymond does. And when guys like Steph and clay, know it when Durant knows it. That's, that's basketball. That's the society I want to live in the society that says, These two guys actually are the same value, I can't win without it. If I don't have somebody doing this, and this, do, we don't move forward, we don't get to that, that promised land of a better world.

Phil White  44:15

And it's interesting that that system that they have with the Warriors, as much freedom as there is within it, there's also intention and that it came out of Steve Kerr's kind of core for values which you know, somebody from outside the game, then to your point of kind of this macro view, and Steve Carroll was one of his you know, his his Pete Carroll sorry, one of his mentors outside of the game coming from football and he was the one that kind of said, like, write down 10 things that are important to you narrow it down to this core four, and then figure out you know, how you measure measurement guys, how the analysts are going to be able to look at it from their standpoint, but principles of play from there and so, starting from that core, four values when you look at those, what do you see and that kind of Carol slash curve philosophy.

David Hollander  45:04

Yeah, I mean, so I'll admit, I don't know that what those core four values are. But I love the basic, the conceptual framework, you know, which is, whatever we're doing out there, if we get lost, if we're like, let's come back to that. It's a human, it's human game. There's there's no getting around. It's a, it's it's a game, the game of basketball is as social as it is physical. There must be kind of like a commitment that everybody's carrying five together, when they're out there, and you got to call for. Well, that's, that's your 10 commands that you buhaug of Amida. That's your, you know. That's where it all comes back to. And everybody knows it.

Phil White  46:08

Yeah, I think the first one once he got down to his shortlist, the first one that him and the rest, you know, Bruce Fraser, and the rest of the staff on Adams got behind was joy. And they realized, okay, if we're going to be joyful, it can't just be staffed with his outward expression of it individually, but the more people who touch the ball on any given possession, the more joy we'll have. So then the numbers guy came in and said, I or we're looking at maybe, you know, 300 Total passes in a game, I think it was okay. So now, you know, whether it's your your subjective, big picture leaders, or the guys that are really nerding out on the numbers, they all have a touchstone. Okay, so let's start with joy. And then let's go to mindfulness, let's go to competition and then down the line. But I think the starting with joy was a pretty special one.

David Hollander  47:00

It's a really special one, you hear Nash? In particular, you mentioned Nash. That's what he used to say. So let's enjoy each other. I love that. Yeah. Because that's what are we here for? What's at the end of the day? If it's, if that's not the undercurrent, and going back to when the original questions like, Hey, what did you really feel when you're out there alone as a kid or, you know, play, you know, some kid in a shooting against his hoop against his barn? A kid in the plains in Africa? Think, think that is what it is? It's joy. Right? A real simple joy.

Phil White  47:43

Yeah. How did that you mentioned earlier, you said something along lines? No, it was self deprecation, but we'll forgive you for it that from that initial guest lecturing. So you come in and give a talk to the students, you know, and you know, frankly, as a writer, I'm trying to see this path because I've done that, you know, we're primarily, as you said, humanities students and writing that you could have been, you know, a straight up English professor or communications professor or whatever. So it's interesting to see how you've progressed and how you've gone to touch on all of these different areas that have kind of fed into the course that we've, we've spent most of our time discussing today. But can you talk to us a little bit about your personal development as a teacher, as a lightning rod, as you mentioned, almost as a coach in the classroom.

David Hollander  48:37

I had some people who were very generous to me, they, they showed me how to build a syllabus, they, they they showed me kind of the way that they did it. And that's how I started I just mimicked what they were doing. And then very quickly, I threw out the textbooks, i i throughout the readings in the assignments and and I began to think very deeply about exactly like, like the four core values, it was like, what am I trying to do here? Really, what am I trying to get across I really got simple and reduced it. And then from there, I I I built every class in service of those basic things that I wanted to kind of get across every class and every Sunday. And, you know, I went to law school. So I was taught, you know, a cross examination. You only ask questions that you know the answer to I don't do that. exactly, but I do spend a lot of time visualizing how this will go, and how the back and forth might go where I will lead them. I don't know what they're going to say, right? So I have to kind of really know what to prepare. But even though I try to make my classes very entertaining, and I'm a different kind of professor, people would be surprised to know, and I tell other professors, I'm a syllabus geek. Like I spend a lot of time before that first minute of class, constructing a syllabus and visualizing every minute of every class. I mean, really, like, like, just like out on the court, like, you win the state champion, and he's got, you know, I'm, I'm having that glory, in my head, every single class. And that's really where I want to go with it. And I try, I mean, I'm exhausted man, after a class, like I have given everything I have. And I'm, I do it, like, with great joy with grit, like, that's what I want. If I haven't done that, I know, I kind of mailed part of it in. And I'm, I'm kind of, I'm guilty. When I do that, I don't do very often. You know, I'm on a segment, I'm sure, like, once in a while, you know, but I you know, maybe this is like, you know, me doing penance for all that I did not use in other academic settings in my life. But that's how I do it. I really, I come in in a totally different way. I, I teach big principles. I make it real. I play dumb. That's one of my devices. I'll be like, hold on a second. I'm like so. So baseball, has an anti trust exemption? Was it even mean? Like determine not? What's a monopoly? You know, I know the answers to these things. Right, right. But I have them say things. And they're like, Wait, we just say that, like this is unfair. And like, oh, you might have no, like, I will. We teach something sports business that so many of them have already had so much exposure to right. they've consumed it. It's mass culture. I have to unlearn that. Like, right from the get go. I'm like, this isn't what you think it is. I don't say that. I let them say, I take them to the point where they're like, Oh, this isn't what we what we thought it was at all. I'm like, I know. It's really crazy, isn't it? Like, Ron?

Tim DiFrancesco  53:15

David, I want to respect your time and I'm just teasing you right now. This is This is part one of a two part at least series we'll be having you back. But there's a famous last question on every episode. And this is the basketball strong podcast. So the question is, what does it mean to you to be basketball strong

David Hollander  53:37

I love this question. Yeah, it it means that I'm imbalance and I mean, in total balance, I mean imbalance with my relationships, imbalance with my psychological and emotional self imbalance with the timelessness of my past my present and my future. I don't mean that as a some kind of, you know, hokey spirituality. I mean, when I'm basketball strong. I know what you need next. I instinctually know what to do for you next. I'm in rhythm with the cosmos. I'm I'm hearing myself as much as I am like, you know, healing the rotation of the earth and I know it and that knowledge that that understanding. There's no greater strength that I've known as a as an individual, separate from the love of my daughter and my wife, my mother and father. When I'm basketball strong, that's, that's that's where I am and who I am in this life.

Tim DiFrancesco  55:27

Write it in stone. That's that is beautiful, sir. I love it. I love it. That's and couldn't be said any better. And it's you're out there. You've lived a basketball strong life to this point, you continue to double down on that we thank you for that. Can you tell people where they can preorder the book where they can get their hands on the book eventually? And then where they can follow what you're doing?

David Hollander  55:51

Yeah, thank you. And you can find the book right now read the second, I believe you can preorder on target. You can preorder in Barnes and noble.com. It should be up very any day now on Amazon. We have an Instagram. I think it's just it's how basketball can save the world. I have no idea how social media works. I mean, I think I do but people do. And I have just so fortunate that I have been discovered by the two of you. I mean, I the fact that you guys exist, to me is like, it keeps its fate. It's, I believe, and

Tim DiFrancesco  56:36

I love that. Well, we feel that way too. And I've been telling people for weeks that I, I've got this, I've got this episode that we're recording in April and it's gonna be it's gonna be one of the bangers and you lived up to it. And that's, and that's why that's why we're already chalking it up for part two. So we're just as grateful this is, this is a connection that's just getting started baby.

David Hollander  57:03

With gratitude and respect, that is what I have.

Tim DiFrancesco  57:11

Thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed today's show, and we hope you did, please give us a good review on Apple podcasts or whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. And so you never miss a weekly episode, be sure to subscribe and follow. You can find previous episodes on our show website. That's www dot basketball strong podcast.com For more basketball performance resources, and nagging injury solutions, follow me on Instagram at TD athletes edge and follow Phil at Phil white books. Until next week's episode, stay basketball strong